SouthwestAnonymous February 8, , 3: I work in utility solar and during the summer we see curtailments during the summer where the systems runs too hot and we have to rack down the amount we are producing. That might explain why your friends see better winter production. Lou February 7, , 6: Love the map showing the areas needed to power the world. Unfortunately, we use a lot of land to convert sunshine to ethanol, which is unbelievably inefficient. Stockbeard February 7, , 6: Ron Cameron February 7, , 6: I think Google Project Sunroof is a great tool to see how your actual location looks from a heat map perspective.
I suppose the system will have value in the future for resale, but I have a hunch in ten years that setup will be laughably outdated. Not as outdated as no setup, however: It looks much more DIY than I thought. The pro bare shingle people will come in droves. RocDoc February 7, , 9: This post made it seem so easy and fun and fairly inexpensive too. I agree with Ron, that in ten years it may be outdated, but I think the fun of having solar energy NOW is worth it. Frugal Asian Finance February 8, , 6: I might be able to save money, but at the same time we would have to put in a huge amount of cash.
They said the system would finally start breaking after ten years or so. Must-Stash February 9, , 9: Maybe worth checking around and seeing if your state has something similar that will help over-rule this objection from your HOA? Solar March 6, , Prices have come down a lot since 2 years ago — and you need to shop around and play the bids off each other. Unfortunately a lot of solar companies will bid what they think you can afford, not what they are willing to charge. Anonymous September 26, , 4: Agreed, there are a lot of bad companies just taking advantage of the state incentives. Find an installer that is honest and explains it until you fully understand everything.
A good installer will do that. I grew up in western MA, not exactly the sunniest place in the country. We had a solar hot water system with oil assist for cloudy days most of New England heats with oil. This is all anecdotal to you of course, but it was a win for our family. David February 8, , 4: When I built my house in Maine I did a lot of research and calculations on getting the best return for my investment in solar.
Heating with the sun made more sense than making electricity. I have collectors that heat water which is pumped through radiant heat coils in the floor. I recommend similar systems to anyone with a good southern exposure. The parts of the system which will look outdated in 10 years will be the parts that are easy to replace though, the infrastructure will be sound. Plus, the odds are that the cost of power will increase, or keep pace with inflation, so the asset value would be measured against this rising cost, not the installation cost. Mike Lomsky February 12, , There are 2 other problems that he has not mentioned, and should be.
The first is degradation. Solar panels will be less powerful over time. The second problem is that, for his carbon calculations, he does not consider the energy cost in making the panels. One also should consider what do do after the panels are done, and what to do with the toxic metals in them. My point here is that they are not perfect nor clean. For me, living in New England, I use air source heat pumps to offset home heating oil use during the times of the year when ambient air temperature is above 40F.
That has saved me or so gallons of oil a year for the last few years, with a payback period of only 10 years. I also get AC for the summer, but that is besides the point. My position is that solar is not good enough for places that are not sunny most of the year, and that includes most of the North East USA. In a few years, when the panel efficiency gets greater with the retail sale of dual-gate and possibly tri-gate or more gate solar panels, then we will have something.
Folks should install what works right for their area, and in much of the US, solar is a good idea; just not all of it, not yet. Money Mustache February 12, , 1: Here in , panel manufacturing is far more optimized than that less glass, less plastic, streamlined cell factories. On top of all this, buying solar panels is not like building a new power plant or buying a gas-powered car — with each purchase, you are advancing the entire industry, which will keep the costs and the embedded energy per watt dropping over time.
Justin February 14, , It takes a huge amount of energy to bring the oil or natural gas to the point of generation. From manufacturing of the steel well casing and pipeline, drill rig operation, fracturing operations, transport, and refinement. Not to mention the small army of oilfield workers driving around the field each day I Fs to maintain the equipment, gauge tanks, etc. Then you have to consider the inefficiencies of transporting the energy from fossil fuel generation from centralized locations long distances to the point of consumption; whereas distributed power i. Upstate Dad February 21, , New panels will of course be more efficient and you would have a smaller array to produce the same amount of power.
No maintenance, no moving parts. They are beautiful in their simplicity. Lily February 7, , 6: Despite the stereotype, there is sunlight in Seattle sorta and one side of our house gets a ridiculous amount of sunlight just blasting down on it every summer. We have considered solar panels before for our 3 story townhome.
I believe installation would cost as much as we will save in energy savings if we use it for years. Thanks for doing the research: Please keep us updated! Another Reader February 7, , 6: Not good enough to make me get out my check book. A neighbor a couple of blocks away works for Tesla, and he recently got a Tesla roof installed. I have seen the Solar City folks out a couple of times, so they are probably still working out the glitches.
One of my ideas for more cost effectiveness is if these systems became foolproof consumer products. It would have a single volt extension cord that you plug into any dryer or range plug, or into the same circuit that your electric car charger in the garage uses, which presumably everybody will soon have. THAT would be a good way to boost solar adoption. Another Reader February 8, , 1: Good luck talking the utility companies into that.
Foolproof when you are dealing with electricity would be defined as impossible to defeat safeguards. The liability issues would probably make it DOA. The glass shingles look like, well, glass and appear very fragile.
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Tesla claims they are very strong and resistant to hail and wind damage. Not a lot of hail or high wind here, but it will be interesting to watch how the roof performs. February 9, , 1: Bakari Kafele February 12, , In MMMs idea above, it would be a stand alone system, which would mean the utility company had no say in the matter.
Just like you can get a solar power pack to plug your phone or laptop in right now. It would be a bigger version of that, that just charged your car or ran the dryer, off grid. Of course, one could do that today, it just takes slightly more work and planning to design and build than a kit.
Nice Joy February 19, , 6: That is what I want to do. Run my air conditioner with solar. My bill will go up when I connect solar to utility company even if I make more KW than used…. This is the sad story from Arizona. TomTX February 18, , The Tesla shingles are tempered glass, and pass the highest standard for roof impact.
Tougher than tile or slate. RobDiesel March 2, , Interestingly, a company about 7 years ago was working on something that was easily digestable for consumers. The point was an easily transportable panel you could even hook up on your balcony if you rented an apartment etc. Another point people miss with solar panels on the roof is that they shade the roof, keeping the attic cooler.
This matters in places like AZ, TX etc. Cooling is a huge part of electricity cost for many people so keeping that cost down is a benefit too. Plus, a shaded roof lasts longer. It is a lot more cost effective to do it yourself. I purchased panels, inverters, and racks from ML Solar, right next to you in Campbell 60 miles from me, so I drove down rather than pay shipping. CoreyH February 7, , 6: Our DIY system is also Solaredge and has been in service for about one year now.
With two electric clown cars, it really makes sense for us. By going DIY we were able to install the same size system 7. Our returns as you described well are more than monetary, but the payback time will be around 63 months. People need to have at least a vague idea of the materials and labor involved, so they can judge what is a reasonable price to pay for something. Solar is cheap and easy — the regulations, fees, and fussy building permit rules are the biggest hurdle now, and I want to see those drastically trimmed back. Tako February 7, , 6: Very cool project MMM!
It sure looks like it! Really cool that you know someone in the industry to explain it all. Most people would be held hostage to a contractor or company to do it all for them. KMB February 7, , 7: How much does the panel output decline over time? How long does the inverter last and does its performance decline? Cliff February 7, , The decline is usually expressed as 0. See the panel specs for the panel of interest. Similarly, inverter specs cite a 12 year warranty.
I have not heard of a similar decline in performance. Chris Urbaniak February 7, , 7: Does the snow melt off due to excess heat from the panels, or does it need to be cleared manually? How do the panels hold up to inclement weather such as hail? I assume that you would want to have a reasonably new roof under the panels to avoid having to re-install them when the roof needs replacing; is that a correct assumption?
Check out YouTube for videos of hail impact tests. If your roof is less than 5 years old, an array will shield your shingles from hail, driving rain and UV. Nebin February 8, , 7: We installed solar on our degree metal roof last year. We previously had problems with ice sheets that would shoot off and put bystanders in danger. The panels do not melt the snow, but seem to be advantageously working as snow and ice-guards. Interestingly we have noticed that the light passes right through the snow and we still get power.
On a bright day it still seems to run just about full generation. But maybe I could do it on our separate low-pitch garage…. Sheryl Highsmith February 8, , 1: While the snow will definitely melt on its own, my husband makes a hobby of clearing it off with a ladder and a very long window-washing apparatus.
I imagine his snow-removal activities get the panels back into action hours earlier than Mother Nature would have done. Our panels have held up perfectly in even the most extreme hail. In fact, our roof was damaged to the point of needing replacement by a hail storm just a couple of years after the panels were installed. We took that opportunity to have another seven panels added when they went back up, since we had just gotten our electric car and needed more power.
Bohemiana February 7, , 7: You have a lot of solar needs with multiple facilities and autos using the juice. We are just a middle-aged couple working from home in a small house. Mrs PoP February 7, , 7: Welcome to the solar world, Pete! I really think this is the future, but we need to keep advocating for them in some areas because power companies are sometimes actively hostile towards residential solar and laws should change and open up to make it an even smarter investment for people and the environment. Adam February 7, , 7: From there FAQ, they want permanent internet access for the Powerwall.
Which really makes it viable for on-the-grid locations. I really like the idea of maintenance-free batteries, though. Which is what the Powerwall is. However, the one company that makes them in the US, filed for bankruptcy last year. Which is a shame, as it was perfect for home setups. The weight kept it from being a player in any other market. So snow could be easily cleared, replacements easily setup, etc. There are plenty of offgrid options, and have been since long long before Tesla even existed.
In between the extremes of a powerwall and salt-water is the good old standard 8D lead acid battery, the same kind semi-trucks use. Cheap, reliable, and barely manageable to move around by one reasonably strong person, and about amp hours each. This is really amazing. Tesla solar roof is a cool thing and very forward-thinking, because it addresses the new construction market and the big-spender market, which are both very large!
However, from a Mustachian perspective, a Tesla roof is like a Tesla car: But if you are still at a stage of life where cost is a consideration, you need to stick to bicycles and DIY solar panels. Matt February 8, , 8: In a nutshell, prettier looking, higher cost, lower efficiency, unsure of lifespan, but probably comparable. I was researching this recently, seems like such a good idea. From what I understand — still in test and a year or two out.
They are trying to make out it will cost not much more than a regular well a tile roof.
They have two types of identical looking tiles, one that produces electricity and one that doesnt thinking being that entire roof particularly the N facing will not be photo-voltaic. It also does not appear to lend itself to roofs that have hips, dormers, multi planes, etc. Who knows, when it finally comes to market cost may come down, but today its in the rich folks only bracket I believe.
Ben Nelson February 7, , 7: Hi Friends, I was very excited to install my own solar this past summer! Faceplate power is 6. I did a pretty complete write-up on it with the hopes of as many people as possible learning from it. That includes planning, installation, budget, troubleshooting, and more! You can see that at: Seriously, if I can do it, anyone can! TJ Schultz February 9, , 8: I live just about an hour north of you and I would also prefer to buy locally produced panels when I decide to install this type of setup on my garage.
Ben Nelson March 10, , 6: Renard February 7, , 7: I was just getting my data together to send to you! My wife and I did a DIY ground mount array of 6. We put it on the ground because our roof is 10yrs old. Using the PVWatts website our production thus far is beating expectations. It was relatively easy to install, with the ground supports and their concrete being the worst part. Like when I cut the water lines with the trencher. The local power company was helpful but dubious of ability. If they go up, we make more money! In the two months since we got it up an running our electricity price has gone up.
How the hell can he do that I thought. We average kW in sunny Florida in our 2 story sqft home. So digging even farther through your blog I discovered some hacks…. So I did, we did an experiment…killed the dryers one upstairs and one down …. Well we found a ton! Water heater set too hot, 2 amps. Old dishwasher 12 amps, and the list goes on. Making a few easy changes we dropped the used not counting the solar to less than kW.
Still too high, but on the right track. We keep the air at 80 in summer and 63 in winter so not that: Since wife is into historic preservation buy older homes to fix up and remodel for extra cash every few years so we have always been limited by the home as it was originally designed. Well we are finally considering doing one for ourselves and with the kids finishing high school it can be much smaller. Reading your blog has given inspiration for many aspects of our lives, working less, living more and enjoying simple things.
Of note, we went with the SMA inverter because it has an Aux power supply that you can lose when the grid is down. Nice for the fridge. Holly February 7, , We use between to kWh per month. We replaced the furnace with a high efficiency one. Replacing all of the insulation in the home made the biggest difference for cutting our heating costs, both natural gas and electricity to run the furnace.
So I open the windows at night to cool the house down, and then close them in the morning to keep the heat out. This works like a charm for the 80 to degree days. Having a gas cooktop probably saves us electricity. However, we also use a large toaster oven to do most of the oven-style cooking. This uses much less electricity than the oven. And we also purchased an energy-efficient condo-sized washer and dryer set, and we only run them when we have full loads.
My husband often hangs the clothes to dry. Changing light bulbs really does make a difference too. All the areas of the home where the lights are used the most have LED bulbs. John N February 8, , I use 48 kWh per month. TheHappyPhilosopher February 7, , 7: Curious, what would the cost be to install a similar system if you outsourced everything to a local solar installation company? Mrs PoP February 8, , 3: Bruce A Johnson February 7, , 8: This time I know our side will win. You are absolutely correct that there is satisfaction beyond the monetary in solar energy.
This time I know our side will win! Ben Nelson February 9, , 8: One of the other commenters here, Bruce, was one of the many people who inspired me to do solar. The more solar including good DIY systems! Spread the good word! February 7, , 8: Congrats Pete and good work. Per the monitoring screenshot, it seems to be working nicely though. Are you still working with the Longmont elementary school to look into solar for them?
Lemme answer all your damn questions! Shaw Solar looks like a great outfit, but Durango is far for periodic service visits. Money Mustache February 8, , 8: I upsized the inverter because the extra cost was minimal and I really hope to add a LOT more panels to the system. My new strategy is avoiding bureaucracy when trying to do good around the city — either do the good without asking, or partner with people who are free from the burdens of lawyers, banks and overseers for now.
February 8, , 2: Open offer to hit me up with solar questions in the future. All in the tribe I suppose. Jamie Costello February 9, , 7: Im curious if you have a link for those classy LED replacements you speak of. Thanks for this article, it has inspired me to give solar panels on our personal home a harder look. Money Mustache February 10, , 3: Hey Jamie — sure: They were Philips brand in the T8 shape and the school required a K color temperature.
Michael R February 10, , 7: TomTrottier February 17, , 1: For art you want coloujr accuracy. CRI — colour rendering index — is most important. It shows how balanced the spectrum is. Tony February 10, , That was going to be my question, whether or not you could add to the setup later. So as long as the inverter can handle the input, you can add more panels? Considering solar on our garage but maybe starting with one side of the gable…. Be carefull how much good you do outside of the bureaucracy. You should just get famous too! Friends DO always pop over to help each other with projects.
Money Mustache to experience this phenomenon. And one of the big messages I try to share here is to work on this aspect of your life. Start a small business. Reach out to people who run companies in your area, and find ways to help them.
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Use Craigslist for most transactions, and meet the people in your community. These are things that help make you more pleasant to be around. Charming myself — I still have lots of work to do in this department. But at least I know the general direction I want to take my life, and how to move in that direction. Colin February 8, , 3: In the last year my two best project-doing friends — who lived within walking distance — moved away.
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Marcia February 8, , 1: I have friends that pop over and help! I have helped other friends with sewing too. My neighbors have traded their skills with building and planting and growing. My other neighbor is a chiropractor with lots of friends who do landscaping, building, and are fishermen. Lots of trading going on! I bought from ML Solar, which had the best prices I could find, and luckily just happened to be 60 miles from my home, so I went and picked them up for less than the shipping would have cost.
Managed to get all the panels in the back of my Jetta wagon, and the racking on the roof. Mount the solar panels just high enough to comfortably walk, drive, and park beneath then rake in the free solar. Same goes for parks in need of a little shade. This would make loads of sense, because parking lots are usually completely unshaded. Some cities already have large installations like this in place especially places like Phoenix where cars and summer sun are a super-unpleasant combination.
The key to making it all work cost effectively is a really cost-effective system to bolt together over the existing parking spaces. If you can minimize the engineering, steel, concrete and building permit aspects, then things start looking much better. The same argument applies to choosing small, lightweight bike infrastructure over the massive stuff we need to build to support cars!
Almost all the County buildings here in Santa Clara County are doing that now. Even the Elmwood Jail has solar covered parking for the employees. Kris February 9, , 5: Michigan State University did this in the past year for some of their huge lots on the edges of campus.
February 10, , Ford did just that at HQ: Sarah February 24, , Maverick February 9, , 1: If you ever have the chance and are in north-central California, visit the Sierra Nevada brewery in Chico. The parking lot has about 11, panels mounted on racks about ten feet up. The racks also support hop bines growing up them, for an extra bonus. I bet it was generating nice returns on the blazing degree day I was there one summer. Anne Marie February 13, , 1: They did this at my workplace! Anonymous February 7, , Thanks, fixed that now too.
Los Angeles is a great solar installation location, because of both the sun and the ultra-high electricity prices. MMM roasted the guy who criticized the friends-helped-me-do-this comment, but I think this deserves it more. The information you seek is out there right now, you can go get it yourself and do the math now, no need to wait 2 years. KT February 7, , Great post, thank you. I have been on the fence on this one for the same reasons. I will get it done this year, though the ridiculous tariffs really chap my hide.
My assumption is that the grid tying incentives will phase out as more homes adopt solar and that a shift to a battery system may be required. At any rate, this is good stuff! Yes, a good point — California already has a surplus of daytime solar, as do parts of Australia. But my local grid is still in the opposite situation: As you get to a higher percentage of solar energy in any given area, you need to start adding storage to absorb the peak production and feed it out during the evening. It is quite a nice synergy that storage and transportation both drive the demand for high capacity batteries, which means the cost per kWh of storage can drop at a much faster rate, driving both electric transport and storage into even wider adoption.
In CA they have addressed some of the problems that rooftop solar creates for the grid by adopting a new standard in inverter technology, ULSA. Old systems have 10 years to upgrade, all new ones must meet the new standard. Have you looked into heat-pump dryers? Maybe still too pricey. We had a gas dryer but switched to electric when we put in panels. Get one with several heat levels, so you can run it on low or extra-low and it draws a lot less, to match your panel output even on a cloudy day. Ideally, they will start to make smart appliances that look at your solar generation and modify their power consumption accordingly.
But yes, there are nights when we just turn it on to get something dry and eat the cost. We are also seeing our local utility stigmatize distributed generation their industry term for homeowner roof-top panels. A utility is a way for investors to park their money build a power plant and get guaranteed returns protected by rate increases, where the PUCs are mostly regulatory capture. Most of them are building their own solar farms now, because it is cheaper than fossil fuels for daytime production, and because they still want to sell you power, not have you make it yourself.
Fact is that in sunny places, solar has already eliminated their daytime peak mostly from air-conditioning , and now they are complaining about the new peak that happens in the evening, when the sun has gone down and people get home from work and turn on lights and appliances. And now storage technologies will help with the evening peak by diverting the excess daytime production. Pumped hydro and industrial-scale batteries are the most mature, just imagine all those old car batteries racked up next to a solar farm. Eventually, we should realize that net-metering is an incentive needed at first to jump-start the rooftop solar industry , and that retail-wholesale rates are fairer to the utility and community all around.
That way, you pay the utility the infrastructure cost for moving that energy around. But now, what they want to do is curtail the homeowner solar: I think this is purely for profit motives and has nothing to do with the purported technical reasons. The solution, of course, is to promote time-of-use: That will encourage day-time electric car charging, especially at workplaces. Chris Stratton February 8, , When I go back and read some of the early posts on this blog, they are pretty clunky and asking to be rewritten. Sometimes I dislike them so much that I actually do dig back in and fix some stuff.
But the overall theme is that retirement is a great time for continued growth. Sarah February 27, , 9: I heard this quote while listening to the radio today: And the gentleman had quite the mustache — check it out!: You have written hundreds of meaningful, powerful articles and even a speech or two, and can have every confidence in your ability to string together words and ideas comprehensibly at this point.
You have built a movement through your words, and I congratulate you. Chris February 8, , 1: I had solar panels fitted around 2 years ago here in the UK, costs are a lot higher and our panels are South-East facing. Payback is looking to be around 7 years. This is awesome Pete. Joanne February 8, , 4: Also, the slippery black glass can shed the snow pretty quickly even when temparatures are a bit below freezing.
But you would probably find that deeper snowfalls shut off production for a while. I made a long wooden squeegee-shaped thing to rake the snow off of this system, just for fun. Not a huge deal, since in Northern latitudes most of the daylight is in the summer months anyway. Bret February 8, , 1: I installed a DIY system last year and my biggest problem in Iowa was, it would snow, then get really cold. The snow would then basically freeze in place until it was well above freezing for a few days or even a week. I went out a couple times after it was above freezing with the hose and would spray them to help melt the snow.
JustGeorge April 18, , 3: Congrats on the rake Mr. An Experimental section for backyard inventors. Nothing For Sale here -- just free ideas, plans, and information. Subscribe to the Newsletter If you have any questions on solar or renewable energy projects, or suggestions to make the site better, or have an energy related idea, or have a project you have done or seen elsewhere -- lets hear about it This DIY system that provides both solar space and water heating in a single system.
The Solar Space Heating section has solar water and air heating systems with and without storage -- some 87 projects.
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The Solar Water Heating section provides many DIY builds for solar water heating systems including batch, thermosyphon, drain back, and closed loop systems, solar showers, solar stock tanks, kits, A cost effective, high R value wall for retrofit or new construction. The simplest and cheapest way ever to cut window heat loss about in half!
The Energy Conservation Page provides ranging from free bubble wrap window insulation to complete redo's of homes. Insulation, appliances, window treatments, lighting, drying, Over 90 projects to build. An easy to build gallon rain water harvest system from our shop roof. Plus a basics and DIY guides section. The Solar Homes section is a very large collection of information on designing and building solar and energy efficient homes -- plans, construction techniques, design information, examples The Solar Pool and Hot Tub Heating section give design and build information for solar pool and hot tub heater builds.
Plus DIY collector designs, natural pools, wood heaters, The Solar Cooking and Food Drying section has more than 40 projects for building solar cookers and ovens, solar food drying, and root cellars. I'm an engineer -- there is lots of analytical and design information here. The Experimental Section -- new ideas, new technologies, down to earth experimental stuff. The garage inventors nirvana. The Biofuels Section has design and build information on veggie oil, bio diesel, making and using ethanol, methane generators, wood gas vehicles, masonry heaters, rocket stoves, wood water heating, and heat from compost.
The Concentrating Solar section has build and design information on various types of concentrating solar collectors including some that make good DIY projects. The Micro-Hydro Section provides design guides and a number of DIY builds ranging from a few watts to multiple kilowatts. A collection of solar and conservation projects that cost much less than you think they would -- several that cost nothing!