We have thought it useful, however, to mention some of these rights and benefits to illustrate these basic points: In summary, we feel that the Agreement secures the traditional way of life and allows those Crees who wish to pursue a new way of life to do so. The Agreement also allows for a mixture of the two. The Agreement itself provides for an evolving process and a procedure for amending it. It should also be noted that both statutes provide or acknowledge that the Cree and Inuit beneficiaries have the rights, privileges and benefits set out in the Agreement.
Thus, we consider that the Agreement rights, privileges and benefits are statutory rights, privileges and benefits and not just contractual rights, privileges and benefits. Sections 4 and 5 dealing with lands and the land regime. Section 8, technical aspects relating especially to the James Bay project. Section 11A, Cree regional authority, and section 26, the Cree legal entities. An Act respecting the Cree regional authority;. An Act respecting Health and Social Services;. Section 18, administration of Justice. Section 22, environment and future development below the 55th parallel.
Chapter 2 of the Environment Quality Act;. Section 24, hunting, fishing and trapping. Section 25, compensation and taxation. Section 28, Economic and Social Development. Section 30, Income Security Program for Cree hunters and trappers. In addition to the foregoing legislation, there were also amendments made to other legislation to take into account certain provisions of the James Bay and Northern. For instance, the Charter of the French Language provides basically for an exemption from the application of the act in favour of Cree beneficiaries and entities with the right to use the Cree language.
Under section 35 of the Constitution Act, , the existing aboriginal and treaty rights of the Aboriginal Peoples of Canada are recognized and affirmed as part of the supreme law of Canada. These aboriginal rights go far beyond land rights based on historical use. The term aboriginal rights is, of course, a much wider term than simply land rights. In any event, the recent constitutional amendment proposed in regard to section 35 of the Constitution Act and resulting from the Constitutional Accord on aboriginal rights makes it clear that treaty rights include rights that now exist by way of land claims agreements.
Consequently, this elevated status of the rights of the Crees under the agreement makes it even more imperative that they be fully respected and implemented. Moreover, there have been some successes in regard to implementation of the Agreement, particularly in regard to the income security program, the setting aside of category I and category II lands, policing and the administration of justice, many aspects of the hunting, fishing and trapping regime, the enrollment process for Cree beneficiaries, the implementation of the section on education, subject to certain reservations, the payment of most of the compensation when due under the Agreement, subject to certain conflicts of interpretation on a small part of the compensation and in relation to certain aspects of the environmental regime.
Nonetheless, there have been important difficulties with this section, especially in respect to possible future hydroelectric development which we will elaborate later on. This, of course, is not to say that there have not been problems of implementation and often considerable difficulties. However, it has been possible for the parties, through persistent and sustained efforts, to effectively carry out large parts of the Agreement as it was intended to function. This relates particularly to Section 14 respecting health and social services and to Section 28 respecting economic and social development.
Examples of the grievances are as follows: Some of these conflicts still have not been resolved, although the review has produced many or some positive results. We therefore do not propose to go into more detail on these problems at this point. If the review does not solve these, the magnitude of the problems of implementation of the Agreement are even greater than we think.
We therefore will turn to more specific comments on each of these subject matters before commenting further upon the review itself. At this point, Mr. Albert Diamond, to continue the presentation. Chairman, Members of the commission, I am pleased of the opportunity to present the section related to health and social services. We made several points on health and social services. We also mentioned that health and social services had not improved since the signing of the Agreement and in certain cases had even deteriorated, that the Cree Board of Health and Social Services of James Bay had not been recognized by the Department of Social Affairs as having the status and combining the functions of a regional health council, a hospital center, a local community service center, a social service center and a reception center and that the Board had not received adequate budgets from the Department of Social Affairs in order to function efficiently.
Other points which were made in the brief were that sanitary facilities were still inadequate in the majority of the villages and that the special provisions in the Agreement, in relation to the recruitment of health personnel and their accommodation, and in respect to special budgetary items, were not being implemented. Since , there has been a marked improvement in the attitude of the Department of Social Affairs, a much greater recognition of the special status of the Cree Board of Health and Social Services of James Bay, and a substantial increase in budgetary support for the Cree Board of Health and Social Services of James Bay.
Preventive health measures are very inadequate as are social services and services for the aged and infirm. There are serious problems relating to the inadequacy of suitable residential facilities for health personnel and serious problems with the implementation of paragraph Moreover, the budgets presently provided to the Board do not cover the costs of health and social services, and programs required by the Cree communities nor do they take into account the generally inferior state of health of the Crees.
There remain serious problems of accommodation in the Cree communities which compound health problems. Moreover, despite Quebec's obligation under paragraph The lack of essential sanitary services is of course intimately related to proper health care and Quebec's inaction in this regard was a significant factor in the health problems experienced and still being experienced by the Crees. At this time, I would like to introduce Ted Moses, Chief of Eastmain, to present the next section of the brief. Chairman, members of the committee, under paragraph In , the majority of the eight Cree communities, spread over a territory of square miles, had no essential sanitation facilities, no sewer system, no water distribution system, no waste water treatment system and no garbage collection system.
Housing was either inexistent or very inadequate in all of the Cree communities. One of the purposes of paragraph Nothing was done in the years following the execution of the Agreement to implement paragraph The report recommended that high priority should be given to this question. It is also true that the overall issue of health care is closely linked and dependent on the living conditions in the communities. There will not be significant improvements in overall living conditions and, in particular, essential sanitation services.
Subsequent to this federal report, the Federal Cabinet voted special funds to be used by the Crees for funding part of the infrastructure projects. This would allow the Crees to be reimbursed for the moneys which they had to put into infrastructure projects from their own compensation funds, which were not intended by the Agreement to be used for such purposes.
This would also permit badly needed community improvements especially in the areas of accommodation, community and recreational facilities, fire protection and other public works. In this regard, paragraph As is well known, the Crees were forced to spend millions of dollars from their own compensation funds to provide essential sanitation services.
This question was also part of the serious dispute with the Federal Government which eventually provided considerable funding for these services. I would like my colleague, Chief Bill Namagoose, to continue the rest of the brief. Another significant failure in respect to the implementation of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement is Section 28 dealing with the economic and social development of the Crees.
Section 28 contains a number of measures which together were to ensure that the Crees could participate meaningfully in economic opportunities and development, businesses and employment. The Agreement had to ensure that the Crees would be able to continue their traditional way of life. This was done through such sections as 24 relating to hunting, fishing and trapping, 30 relating to income security, 22 relating to environment and future development and 9 relating to self-government. It goes without saying that social and economic development are interrelated and this is recognized by Section 28 of the.
If the basic community infrastructure problems are not solved, if there is inadequate electricity, if the cost of materials remains very high and if the difficulties of distance and geography are not overcome, economic measures will be seriously compromised. Over half of our population derives its main means of living from hunting, fishing and trapping.
Almost all of our People do some hunting, fishing and trapping and there are well over full-time Cree trappers. However, unemployment is a problem in the Cree communities and projected unemployment for the next 10 to 20 years is very worrisome. Almost all of the principal regional economic development projects of the Crees have been almost wholly financed by the Crees themselves. The construction industry and air transportation have furnished the most economic opportunities for the Crees. Certain individual efforts have been assisted by the James Bay Native Development Corporation, but this corporation has not been able to play a large regional role.
However, because of political problems relating to the role of the corporation in areas such as air transportation, the corporation's effectiveness as an economic development vehicle was severely hampered until relatively recently. The gap has had to be filled by the Crees with their own compensation funds when the intention of the Agreement was that the James Bay Native Development Corporation would be the primary vehicle for the economic development of the Crees.
As mentioned, this has not materialized. The practise of this tradition still continues today and is increasing with growth of Cree Indian population. The Cree hunters and trappers greatly contribute to the fur industry of our country. During the James Bay negotiations, the Cree chiefs, leaders and the Cree people insisted upon the importance of the preservation and the protection of their tradition, culture and their special hunting, fishing and trapping rights. This was only normal as hunting, fishing and trapping constitute the main economic base of our people.
Virtually, all of our population hunts, fishes and traps at least part-time. Over half of our population is supported by full-time hunting, fishing and trapping activities. At the time of the negotiations, we had learned of the existence of other trappers' associations in the country with their objectives, goals, organizations and benefits to their trappers. As a result of the favorable report by the feasibility study group contemplated in sub-section The Association has 9 directors and a 3 member executive committee.
There is one director elected from each Cree community with the exception of Mistassini which has two directors due to a high number of trappers and a large area to serve. In each Cree community, there is a trappers' committee. The composition of each community differs due to the different population sizes in each community. The trappers' committees supervise the local administration work of the Association and carry on local programs for the benefit of the trappers. The committee members are elected by the trappers of each Cree community.
Not all of the proposed programs of the Association were approved, despite the recommendations of the feasibility study group, however the Association began operating those which were approved. For example, the Association opereates a bush radio program under which a system of radio communication between trappers' camps and their home communities has been established.
==สถานพินิจฯ กรุงเทพมหานคร
The importance of the program cannot be overstated. It provides a means of communication in case of emergencies, illness or accidents with the bush camps of our trappers, many of which are located hundred of miles away from any community. These bush radios also serve to assist in efficient dispatching of aircraft to traplines so that furs may be picked up from the camps and supplies for the trappers may be flown in. The aircraft dispatching program, which is run by our local employees, helps to rationalize the use of aircraft and to deploy them more efficiently.
This results in a reduction in the cost of air travel which is the single greatest expense for most trappers. The Association is also extremely interested in trapline management and wildlife conservation programs. To this end, we have begun to survey our trappers to record game levels and other important data. This data is essential if we are to be able to manage our wildlife resources effectively. Effective management of the resources is, of course, the major concern of our members whose livelihood depends upon the availability of game.
It is agreed by all parties that after two years of operation of the programs in the five-year plan, an evaluation was to be conducted. This evaluation was to study the programs, as implemented, and recommend improvements where appropriate or suggest new programs in the plan for the benefit of the Cree trappers. Funding for these programs was to be negotiated accordingly. Our evaluation report was submitted to the three parties: The Government of Canada and the Cree Regional Authority have been ready to meet with us on the subject of funding for several months.
We have received no funding for the fiscal year and we are operating at the moment on the advance which we have received from the Cree Regional Authority. This is a most unsatisfactory situation and one which cannot be allowed to continue any longer. Chairman, I would like to call upon Chief James Bobbish, of Chisasibi, to continue the brief on the economic and social development.
This committee, which has met infrequently, has not functioned effectively at all. The Crees have received little assistance in the first two areas and no help whatsoever with regard to Cree regional projects. For example, just a few weeks ago, we had a fire in Chisasibi; fortunately, there was no loss of lives and we had good volunteer services.
But, unfortunately, none of these volunteers are trained. Also, just last Sunday, there was a fire in the Grand Chief's residence. It was only due to his wit and resourcefullness, that he learned and obtained by constantly dealing with Government officials, that he finally put the fire out. Finally, to this day, there are still no access roads constructed to join the settlements of Eastmain, Wemindji and Rupert House to the main LG 2 Matagami road, despite the direction in the agreement to achieve such roads through negotiations, in particular paragraph This is, of course absolutely unacceptable.
As matters now stand, Section 28 amounts to a misrepresentation to us. Nor are we satisfied that the review will correct the situation. It must also provide very substantial funding to meet the promises and commitments it has made. Finally, it should be open to the elaboration of a master Northlands type agreement to deal with economic and social development on a comprehensive basis. Chairman, I would like Mr. Documents were exchanged and meetings were held with the representatives of SAGMAI and various government departments. This review has already proved to be somewhat useful in dealing with and, to a certain extent, in solving a number of issues that have been outstanding for far too long.
However, even on these there remain differences of perspective. In any event, on the whole, there has been considerable cooperation in respect to the holding of meetings and frank discussion of problems. However, progress has been limited essentially to items of a nonmonetary nature.
In addition, while the review has made some progress in relation to problems relating to Section 14 of the Agreement described earlier, it is too early to tell if the important outstanding grievances can be solved. On the other hand, there has been virtually no progress in coming to grips with the problems of implementation of Section 28 of the Agreement and in dealing with.
It is most paradoxical that with the most gigantic hydroelectric project in North America virtually on their doorstep, the three Cree communities of Wemindji, Eastmain and Rupert House on James Bay experience severe problems with electricity which they receive through diesel generators. Virtually nothing has been done to implement paragraph 8.
The problem became so unique and acute in Wemindji that the band has after considerable study, decided to build a mini-hydroelectric plant, which is presently under construction. In fact, the construction is presently a company. Chairman, we hope to finish in a few moments. I hope the committee will continue to bear with us. In respect to the possible future hydroelectric development, the Crees consider that any future hydroelectric development or future development for that matter require the consent of the Crees.
This undertaking has not been respected and Crees have been charged under the Wildlife Conservation Act for hunting and trapping on their traditional traplines. A regime for Cree harvesting rights outside the territory must therefore be elaborated immediately. Recently, we have made a request to initiate negotiations to obtain a land for this community.
We request this Committee's support in this matter. One of the positive effects of acceptance of this request would be to allow these Crees to fully participate in the benefits of the Agreement, since they are now able to obtain some of the benefits because they reside outside of Category IA. Crees living at Moosonee and Moose Factory in Ontario. There are Crees living at Moose Factory and Moosonee, Ontario, on James Bay, who are beneficiaries under the Agreement, but who cannot exercise many of the rights under the Agreement because they live outside the Cree communities.
And if the Premier had been present this afternoon, I would have told him that he would have to talk to Bill Davis after all. We wish to point out that any such reorganization will require our consent. The time has come for the Crees to be a major participant in any regional government of the James Bay Territory.
We will be most vigilant to protect our interests in this regard. We believe that we should play a preponderant role in any future regional government of our traditional territory. We further believe that since we constitute the majority of the population, we should be the regional government of at least a substantial portion of our traditional area.
We dare to express the hope that this will be an opportunity for us to play a leading role in the management of our traditional territory and its resources. Development of forestry, mining and natural resources. We wish to be more involved in projects relating to these subjects, both from an environmental point of view and from the point of view of economic development.
To date, we have not been able to influence operations in these areas to any significant degree, nor have we been able to participate in the economic development opportunities related to these sectors. Any rational development of these sectors should take into account our presence and our traditional way of life. Air transportation and airstrips. The Crees have proven themselves in the area of air transportation. We have a viable carrier of which we have the majority control, Air Creebec Inc.
This is an eminently suitable activity for us. However, we believe that the Prime Minister and his office should continue to have responsibility for Native affairs and that this responsibility should be a permanent one. We prefer cooperation, not confrontation. We are convinced that the court cases would not have been necessary had the Agreement been properly implemented.
We are hopeful that the results of the review will settle all the outstanding issues between us. Our readiness to defend our rights is public knowledge; our objective is that this should not be necessary. Representation in the National Assembly. As mentioned in this brief, there are not only traditional and historical reasons for such a Cree district, but from a geographical point of view, from a social and cultural point of view and from the point of view of the special rights of the Crees in the territory, it is only logical that the Crees have a distinct electoral division with special representation.
Finally, in conclusion, Mr. We are not yet convinced, however, that the Government will go far enough to ensure that the Agreement is fully respected and that the past wrongs are righted. History teaches us that we cannot take too mary risks. Our instincts tell us that we must be cautious. Our traditions tell us that we must give you another chance. Unfortunately a child of Chief Coon-Come recently passed away. Our prayers, sympathies and condolences go to Matthew and his wife.
However, a former chief from that particular Band and my colleague, Philip Awashish, will take the responsibility to make the Mistassini presentation. Heureusement, c'est de l'histoire presque ancienne. J'ai devant moi, M. Chairman, I have to respond to the Minister's comments, even though he thinks our brief is wonderful and beautiful, that it is exactly the reaction that we do not want. What we claim here is certain action and for the committee to recommend to the House what type of action can be done. Let me tell the Minister that, since the Agreement has been signed, we had worked effectively in order to ensure that the proper legislation is drafted.
We drafted that legislation together and we made sure that the National Assembly was adopting that legislation. What we had hoped was that we could deal directly, as responsible citizens in this province, with each Department and be given that opportunity. For example, you say that the Income Security Program is a model and it works. We agree that it is a model and we agree that it works. It works because there is joint development by the Crees and by representatives from the Department of Labour.
This is a joint venture project. However, that project has been recommended by the Minister, Mr. Marois himself, to Cabinet to delete or repeal article 48 and to have the limit of the man-days be dropped so that this program can apply to the Crees who are hunting, fishing and trapping in the territory. Once again we go through a consultation process. Once again we go through another study and another process. So, it does not work. Either accept recommendations of your individual Ministers or accept the recommendations of the Crees.
The evaluation of those task forces is only at the participation of the Crees at several meetings. We do not agree with that evaluation, even though there were meetings taking place between ourselves, and we do not agree with the recent document of Mr. Gourdeau, in a letter that he sent to us, outlining that evaluation. We say that there are still many outstanding issues to be discussed. The point of the matter is that there are still principles to be settled between yourselves and ourselves.
Those principles have to be made by Cabinet and it is the Cabinet responsibility to decide on those principles. Is Cabinet ready to make a decision on those principles? That is the issue and those principles will change policy as far as Aborigional Peoples are concerned in this province.
Are you ready to change policy? Are you ready to do that? If your are ready to do that, then you can say those evaluations are, in effect, good and proper. We gave you an example: Now, we are in a situation whether we will be capable of opening that school in January because of insufficient electricity in Rupert House.
The intent was that SODAB could be used as a funding and technical resource for Crees to have proper economic opportunities in the North. Is Cabinet ready to do that? First of all, I would like to go back to your presentation. I want to make it clear that we agree with the main criticisms that you present. I did not intend - and I am sorry if this was what I conveyed - to brush off the principles, nor did the Prime Minister intend to brush off the principles. This is what we discussed all the time this morning. This is what we considered when we replied, and Cabinet replied - not SAGMAI - the Council of Ministers replied to the 15 principles that you proposed to us sometime ago.
We studied very carefully, at Cabinet, these 15 principles. The Prime Minister replied: We have told you, several times, that these 15 principles, as we see them, are the basis for further discussions, for further negotiations. I can only repeat that what was said this morning, namely that we, the government - and it seems that the official Opposition intends to go along - intend to table a resolution before Christmas that would establish the equivalent content of what was established in the so-called accord of March That is talking about principles.
We also said that we would maintain a permanent commission devoted to the interest of the Aboriginal Peoples. That is also principles and, Mr. Diamond, I merely said that I thought we did not have the time, because if we take the time to discuss all these principles or all these various remarks that you have made in your long and magisterial presentation, I think this would penalize other groups who wish to present other memoirs this evening.
We should discuss this structure. All I can say on behalf of the Government is that we are open to hear your suggestions on various improvements to that structure. I had also one question. Grand Chief, I had not finished my remarks. Supposing that the Federal Penner report were to be adopted by the Federal Parliament and that they were to implement such a report, have you considered what effects, if any, that would have on the Bay James Convention? Chairman, I do not intend to brush up my own principles as well. The principles that were mentioned this morning by the Cabinet, as the Minister has repeated, they do intend to table the resolution.
The point that I am trying to make, Mr. That is the point that I am trying to make. The Penner report has been tabled; it has yet to be approved by the Federal House and by the Federal Cabinet.
LISTE PAR CATEGORIES D'ACTIVITES DES ENTREPRISES MEMBRES
We feel that the Penner report enhances and encourages that particular concept that we have in section IX of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement. So, the Penner report is of serious value to the Crees and could be of very serious assistance to the Crees. But those particular negotiations are still ongoing and we have a draft of a Cree-Naskapi legislation. We are not ready to release that draft to anyone. Je note avec satisfaction que les autochtones, les Cris, voient l'entente de la Baie-James, comme une charte de leurs droits.
Mais ils nous donnent un avertissement. Quand le ministre dit: On se gargarise ce matin en disant: Il a admis qu'il y a certaines ententes. Il va plus loin, il nous dit qu'il n'y a pas d'espoir. Il semble que le gouvernement ne donne pas d'indication de vouloir respecter cette entente. Cette entente avait deux buts: Nous avons le devoir de faire quelque chose. On voudrait avoir un peu plus. Je ne veux pas entendre dire: Oui, on est d'accord avec les principes. I would like to ask two questions to the Chief Billy Diamond.
Do they have to do with the fact that, perhaps there is not a structure that has the responsibility on the part of the Government to apply that Agreement with the power to apply it? Is it an organism or a function of the Government to apply the terms of the Agreement which does not seem to exist? Chairman, the Agreement has worked in the areas where it is clearly defined. It is a new type of core funding administration that we are talking about for the Cree Regional Authority. Again, we are talking about principles; again we are talking about new ground and new policies as far as the Crees are concerned respecting the Cree Regional Authority and its funding.
Let us take, for example, section 16, on education. The Minister of Education is closely involved in the implementation of section Even if we have our difficulties, we have an internal mechanism to make sure that we start discussing the problems. The Cree School Board is partially a success story, but where there are differences between the Cree School Board and education policies is when there is discussion between the Federal Government, the Provincial Government and the Crees. The Crees are used as a political football between the two Governments.
Do you have any specific recommendations as to how the Agreement could be properly applied? Do you have any proposals that you could make as to how the Government could apply this Agreement in a more constructive way? Native Peoples are concerned, for instance, the constitutional work, and other work like that. Any secretariat in the Government machinery has a Minister responsible for its activities.
The Prime Minister is the Minister responsible for that secretariat and he has a deputy-minister who is Mr. Diamond is talking about a bureaucracy. It means to be small, a light structure which responds to the Prime Minister and to a ministerial committee that has been formed with the Minister of Justice, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and myself, with the Prime Minister as chairman. Now, to give the impression, as your words have given, Mr. Diamond, that SAGMAI is operating outside of the political power, outside of the Cabinet is not really conform is not really according to the reality.
It has nothing to do with SAGMAI, it has to do with basically political will between ourselves and the ministers who are responsible for the implementation of the various sections of the agreement. Are the ministers ready to take political decisions on behalf of the Government or ready to sit back and deal the whole matter to the bureaucratic channels? That seems to be the problem. I think that you have taken a legal proceeding in one case on the right of first refusal and, if I understand correctly, you already have a judgment in your favour confirming your rights in the Agreement.
What has happened to that judgement and where does it stand now? Chairman, members of the committee. Through the course of the past years, we had certain problems with respect to the implementation of the Agreement. One of these problems has to do with the question of the application of the exercise of the right of first refusal in category III lands in the territory complied by the said agreement.
This right of first refusal is an outfitting right which is supposed to be exercised by the beneficiaries of the Agreement for a period covering 30 years since the signing of the Agreement. To this stade we have not formally exercised the right because we have a problem in the interpretation of the exercise of that right. I do not want to make a long story of how we do not see eye to eye on the application of that right, except to say that we had to go to court to have a judgment pronounced on the application of the exercise of that right.
The Crees did when they cased on a declaratory judgment. We have sought a political solution to the problem rather than trying to pursue this whole matter to the Courts. The Courts have always been of course available to any citizen who would defend his rights, and we have taken that recourse. We do not want to continue to pursue legal proceedings and Court cases against the Governments.
We have intended to seek a. We were promised a solution out of the Courts. Chevrette's Office, has promised a pending proposal to the native parties.
To this date, we have not received any proposal to settle the question on the right of first refusal. The formal position of that Government has been so far as to appeal to the Court against the decision that was made in our favour, and that is the present status of that situation. Awashish vient de le lire. Je crois que ce serait une solution plus raisonnable. Est-ce qu'on peut s'entendre sur le nombre de minutes? Je n'en ai pas pour longtemps. Au sujet de la page 41, vous parlez de chasse hors territoire.
Vous dites que vous avez eu des pressions de la part des agents de conservation de la faune, que vous avez eu des infractions en ce qui regarde la chasse et le trappage. Est-ce que c'est bien cela que vous vouliez dire? Chairman, members of the committee, we had intended, before I answered the questions of the Honourable member, to submit a brief on behalf of Mistassini Band.
So, I do not know if you want to give us the opportunity now or later to submit the brief. Is your short brief a part of this one? It is the same? It is number 5. The brief itself on the Mistassini Band deals with some of the problems that were raised by the Minister. They should come back We invite you to be here at eight o'clock tonight and we will continue with you. Just before supper, Mr. Chevrette raised a few questions and what I would like to do is simply briefly go through the presentation of the text upon the question which was raised by the Minister.
Our community has a population of approximately people and is situated about 60 miles north of Chibougamau. Many Government Departments continue to formulate general policies for the area without regard to the Agreement. On several occasions, general policies have been formulated which are contrary to the spirit and letter of the Agreement and which we have had to resist in order to protect our rights.
This has caused us to expend both time and money. It is clear to us that the formulation of these general policies for the area are often not so much the result of bad faith on the part of the Government but rather are the result of ignorance of the provisions of the Agreement on the part of some of its employees. One of the concerns is the matter regarding the Chibougamau Crees. Our general brief made before supper or during the afternoon did touch upon this question respecting the Chibougamau Crees. Therefore, we are not going into great details on it except to say that the Mistassini Band fully supports the Chibougamau Crees in their request for a community and land of their own.
Right after the James Bay Agreement was signed, we would resolve the question of the Chibougamau Crees under request for land for their community. We hope that the commission, here, will support the recognition of the request of the Chibougamau Crees in their attempt to have additional lands or a land for their own base community. Traditionally, the Crees have hunted, fished and trapped not only within the James Bay Territory but also over the height of land to the east and the south of the territory as defined in the Agreement.
There are traplines in these areas outside of the territory which have been exploited by Cree trappers for generations. Since the signing of the Agreement in , a number of the Cree trappers who have been carrying out their harvesting activities in the areas traditionally harvested by them outside the territory have been told by conservation officers that they no longer have any rights in the areas traditionally harvested by them. In a number of cases, equipment and products of the hunt have been seized and individuals charged under the Wildlife Conservation Act.
The situation is unacceptable to us. It is another example of issues left outstanding at the time of the signing of the Agreement with the understanding that they would be dealt with separately at a later date. The context of the negotiation and the signing of the Agreement must be remembered. It was clearly understood during the negotiations leading up to the Agreement that the rights of the Crees harvesting outside of the territory would be dealt with after the signing of the Agreement. This is not the first time which we have raised this problem.
To date there has been no permanent solution to this problem, although we understand interim arrangements are to be made. We simply will not accept the idea that some of our Band members should be deprived of their rights and their livelihood in this manner. We ask the support of this commission to ensure that undertakings made at the time of the negotiation of the Agreement to negotiate an appropriate regime for Cree trappers outside the territory are respected, and that an appropriate regime which would allow Crees to continue their traditional activities in the lands which they have exploited for generations be established.
Another concern is the policy of access to Mistassini Lake. At the time of the signing of the Agreement, the general public was permitted access only to the southern half of Mistassini Lake. The most northerly limit, past which the general public was not permitted access, was the island of Marie-Victorin. One of the clauses of the Agreement provided for the transfer of these two fishing camps to the Mistassini Crees. Coincidentally the Department of Tourism and Fishing Game, as it was then called, decided unilaterally and without consulting the Hunting, Fishing and Trapping Coordinating Committee to change the regime on Mistassini Lake and to allow the general public access to all of the lake.
Please wait
This new policy disturbed us for several reasons. One of these was the fact that it undermined the operating conditions of the fishing camps which had been transferred to in virtue of the Agreement. As far as we are concerned, the transfer of the camps contemplated in the Agreement included the transfer of the conditions under which the camps operated at the time of the signing of the Agreement.
This issue was discussed by the Coordinating Committee and a letter was sent by the committee to the minister at that time, Mr. Lucien Lessard, setting out the concerns of the committee over the fact that it had not been consulted prior to this change of policy. Our only contact has been through the regional office of the Department in Chibougamau.
At the same time, as the Coordinating Committee was being assured that the law would be respected and that the matter was one for negotiations between us and Government representatives, we were being told through the regional office in Chibougamau that if we did not come to an agreement to at least a minimum number of campsites being set up around the lake, they would proceed unilaterally to establish such campsites as they saw it including one which they threatened to establish directly opposite one of our fishing camps.
We have been told, through the Chibougamau office, that the Department wishes to open up access to the lake in a orderly fashion through the establishment of a series of designated campsites for the general public which is the non-Native public. We have also been told that the main concern of the Department has always been one of public security on the lake, and that the reason that the general public had not formerly been allowed access to the northern portion of the lake was that the Department had felt that it did not have the resources to adequately control the lake and to ensure the security of the public.
This is an example of the establishment of a general principle, which may, in itself, be fine in theory but which may have serious repercussions on our rights as established in the Agreement. Although the waters of Mistassini lake are category III to which the general public may have access, they are surrounded by our category I and II lands which must be protected. Through discussions with the Chibougamau office of the Department of Recreation, Fish and Game, we agreed to the establishment of several campsites for the general public at the southern end of the lake on a pilot project basis and without prejudice to our rights.
These campsites have operated for two seasons and their operation has confirmed many of our worst fears. The area is not being properly patrolled by conservation officers and our rights under the Agreement are being seriously jeopardized. We have consistently stated that while we do not necessarily object to the principle of public access to the southern portion of Mistassini Lake, since that was the regime in existence at the time of the signing of the Agreement, we have always insisted and we continue to insist that any policy of access to the lake must be conditioned by and consistent with respect for our rights.
It is not up to us to expend our own very limited resources to see that the laws are enforced. If the government is unable, through lack of interest or lack of resources or both, to ensure that access to the lake by the public will not in any way jeopardize our rights, then they must not insist upon general access to the lake.
General theories must not be allowed to overide specific legal rights. We are always ready and willing to meet with the Government to discuss this issue, notwithstanding the confusion our who. However, we are not prepared to see our rights undermined or ignored. We would also ask you to recommend that the Government not implement general policies without dedicating adequate resources to ensure that these policies do not jeopardize our rights.
Nous avons eu vent de cette demande il y a un mois, selon les informations que nous avons. Est-il exact que nous vous avons dit: We just want to touch upon some of the questions that were raised by the Minister. Before we broke for supper this evening, we were discussing the right of the Cree people respecting outfitting as the right of a first refusal. It is true that it is under the Courts and that we had expressed the desire to settle the matter outside of the Courts, but as far as we know, there has not been an offer made directly to the Crees to settle the matter.
We cannot pronounce ourselves on any specific proposal, because we have not received any proposal except to say that we are prepared to discuss this matter outside of the Courts, so that we can go on with the business of implementing the rights of the Cree people on the right of first refusal. It has been eight years since the Agreement has been signed and we have not been able to exercise this right on a formal basis. We hope that the fact that we did not have the opportunity or were denied the opportunity to exercise that right will be taken into account, because it was supposed to be a right that we had for a 30 year period.
On other matters raised concerning the rights of the Cree trappers outside of the territory, there has been several cases which our people had been charged for harvesting in areas outside of the territory. First of all, we want to state that these are areas outside of the territory of the Agreement, areas in which we have harvested. It is a traditional area which we call the Cree trap lines outside of the territory of the Agreement.
They are located in reserves and the Government has stated that general laws apply. However, we have been charged by the Conservation Office for some illegal hunting. In fact, one of our people who has been charged is on my left here, Mr. Thomas Coon, who is also a member of the Mistassini Band. We have tried to settle this question of harvesting outside of the territory of the Agreement on a few occasions.
As I mentioned in our brief, we have agreed on a temporary solution, but we nevertheless seeked a permanent solution to the problem. Our people are not going to stop trapping in the areas outside of the territory just because they happened to be located outside of the territory. Our people are not going to be requested to stop living their way of life in the area where they have traditionally trapped and hunted from time immemorial.
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We proclaim to have aboriginal rights in the territory which must be recognized in those traplinis outside of the territory that the agreement includes. This is not, as far as we are concerned, a recent matter. It is definitely a matter which was raised in the course of negotiations because I was involved personally in the negotiations and I clearly remember this matter been raised. We wish to settle the question of the Chibougamau Crees and their request for land and a Cree Community for themselves and their people. These two camps have been transferred to the Crees.
We are not a hundred percent satisfied with the transfer of the camps because certain out-postes which you are operating from the main two camps were not transferred. Continuing on the Mistassini Lake access, we must agree that there is no formal agreement concerning access to the Mistassini Lake. What is of concern to the Crees is the fact that the lake may be opened fursuant to intents of the Government to do so. We have tried and have stated that we seek an agreement to open the lake under certain conditions to the public.
The other thing is concerning the lake again, the Mistassini Lake. The committee will be meeting the next December 2. This is an ongoing discussion on the matter. We are not optimistic that there will be an agreement next week on this question that has been raised before the coordinating committee. O'Reilly or his legal counsel would have additional remarks to make if he is allowed to do so. I just wanted to inform the Minister that I was one of the attorneys involved in that case on the right of first refusal and, although I am not in my office very much, between the West and here and two in the Western here in Ottawa, I really had not heard that there has been a proposal submitted.
Last week, I had spoken to the other attorneys and we had not received it yet. Maybe one is coming, but it has not yet been received, as far as I know. So, maybe it is in the mail somewhere. The second point is in respect to the problem of extraterritorial hunting so-called. It raises a very significant issue because the Crees take the legal position that they did not have any rights taken away, whatever rights were taken away in the territory.
We make no admissions. Maybe some day somebody will decide what the Native claims and rights which may have been extinguished were: The second point is that outside of the territory there was no legislation taking that away. Then, you fall back on what it means to give up rights in land, in one of the sections in the Agreement. That, we say, does not mean hunting, fishing and trapping rights, if land rights were given away. So, that we could have in the making a very. So, what is really being requested is: Let us not make this a major legal issue; let us, please, try to solve this specific problem, taking into account that they had been traditionally hunting and trapping over the height of land and that those, we think -although there may be small differences with the Montagnais - are basically recognized as Cree traplines.
So, the problem could have dimensions which the problem need not have. That is all I wanted to say on that point. Chairman, I have a colleague here who wishes to make further statements. His name is Thomas Coon. This is a supplement to Mr. They did not wanted to be accused and charged of hunting outside of the territory or extraterritory. I can not understand that point: Is this because that we signed the Agreement of the Government that we can no longer exercise those rights that we used to traditionally exercise?
We have lost a valuable area, a valuable land that we used to traditionally harvest just because we had signed the Agreement. I have been accused of violating the Wild Life Conservation Act for illegal hunting outside of the territory. My belief is whatever rights other people have outside of a territory, I have the same rights.
Je voulais simplement donner certaines informations. Il omettait de lire le paragraphe suivant, dans lequel on dit: What should be the most urgent measures that should be taken to improve the situation you are deploring in your brief, in relation to health and social services? To respond to the question firstly, Honourable Members of the Commission, one of the urgent measures actually has nothing to do with the provision of health and social services as such.
In the brief, I have said that the officials of the Department of social affairs and the members and employees of the Cree Board of health and social services differ on exactly what powers the Cree Board of Health does, in fact, have. The position of the Crees is that an organization has been created that combines those responsibilities and powers of an institution, that is a regional health council, a hospital centre, local community service centre, social service centre and a reception centre, all under one organization.
The officiers from MAS, of course, have to work with the existing establishments, as they are now being organized under the present laws, where one council is responsible for a hospital centre, another council for a community service centre and so on. Just the fact that we can not agree on what the Health Board can do is the first and major problem.
When you talk about that aspect, you are talking, of course, on the operating budget of the organization, which, in this case, is the Health Board. When we talk with the officier of MAS, they are talking about establishments rather than organizations, such as the one we have with the Cree Board of Health and Social Services. To continue with the other urgent measures, in the field of just determining what level - for example, let us use the one you refer to as the mortality rate - we really do not even have budgets to be able to go and find out what those mortality levels are right now.
The funding that we receive is barely enough for us to be able to provide levels of service where Crees can be seen by specialists, where clinics are held daily for mothers and for elderly people, where we have very little in the social services sector, where it is only through existing programs, such as alcohol and drug abuse through the Federal Government and through the Youth Protection Act. It does not really go beyond that. Another sector where it is most urgent that measures be undertaken is in the field of sanitation.
The Crees are sort of caught in a circle where, if you do not put in the water and sewage systems, the health problems that they are encountering will continue. It is just one big circle. The only thing, in fact, that we can provide now is curative medicine rather than be able to undertake providing preventive measures. In fact, it was planned exactly that way, where we can group all of these under one roof, so to speak, because there are only so many Crees that can serve on the Health Board, and there were only so many Crees to serve, and having numerous boards that were responsible.
What we do have is something though that officiers of MAS never had to work with before, so they were not able to adapt to this new institution that, we thought, would be the working model. They wanted to be able to continue to provide the services and the funding through the same mechanisms that they had in the past for all of the other reception centres and other organizations of that nature. We did not fit in and they did not adapt to this new creature that was organized. I think you mentioned somewhere that there is no opportunity or very little opportunity for your own people to work in these various establishments.
Could you tell me how many people of your community work, for instance, in the CLSC? I mean, is it mostly people from your community or is it mostly people coming from the South? If you talk about the professionals that we require, we do not have any Crees which is one of our greatest difficulties, the fact that we have to draw on the resources available in the Southern centers. I would like the commission to know that it is very difficult for us to convince nurses, doctors and other specialists to move up to the Cree communities and to the hospital center that we have operating in Chisasibi.
It is one of the primary objectives of the Health Board, in fact, and for almost a year now, we have had discussions with officials from the MAS to organize courses for Cree individuals to pursue training at the nursing level and at other levels, dental assistants and so forth. In some cases, we do have the courses outlined, and we are very close to that stage where we are going to be seeking candidates very soon.
So, we are definitely going towards that avenue. Training is rather lengthy and the territory that we have to cover is quite considerable. I am going to ask you one more question, because time is running out. Have any steps been taken by the Government to improve this serious problem of interpretation when people come to the hospital?
Yes, the whole file regarding patient services, including transportation, reception of those patients at the airport whatever place they travel to, plus the interpretation services, has been somewhat resolved. However, it was only recently that we received some of the funding for it. We are providing some services, for instance, in Val-d'Or, where our budget for those items has not been approved yet, but we are paying anyway, trying to save in other budget units that we have.
There again, it is a matter of what type of service you are able to give the individuals in the community clinics, at the hospital center in Chisasibi. That is because we do not have the equipment nor the personnel to do it in Chisasibi. I want the commission to know that when we send one patient down to Montreal for one day, it is really a three-day excursion. Right there, you are spending a thousand dollars for one patient. Conception et realisation d'amenagement paysager personnalise. Concessionnaire de bateaux neufs, usages et en courtages.
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