Les 100 mots de la régulation: « Que sais-je ? » n° 3871 (French Edition)

Well, there was a period of time during which we weren't formally regulated at all. I know for phone companies that's Nirvana and probably not for regulators, but there was a period of time and that might have been the period of time at which we introduced MRS. Because again, I mean, my math would tell me if you incorporate it into the rate and just bundled it in, then, as you increase your telephony rates by inflation or whatever, 2 percent, 3 percent, you are bumping that number up, as well.

We can certainly undertake to see what we can find in our records. Unfortunately, I have been around forever and I can't recall the specifics as to how it was that occurred. I think it probably was during that unregulated era. Was there anything else you did during that unregulated era that you want to share with us? I'm sure they are all good. I'm sure they are. And I think I heard you say that the order levels, in order to bring in product, was a minimum of 10, units, and therefore it didn't support the business proposition. And if they couldn't, I would tend to think you can still buy them off the shelf if you had to subsidize them, which is maybe what you are doing on TTY, I don't know.

Well, certainly we have a number of wireline terminals that we are able to source quite easily and I think it's probably more the nature of the cellular terminal industry. No, and I have no doubt that it's difficult to deal with large manufacturers who have production runs that are in the tens of thousands, if not even more than that, but that doesn't mean you can't get them through a distributor and perhaps pay a higher margin, a higher price for it. But I'm sure people are bringing them into the United States, for example. Why you couldn't call them up and say, Can you sell us a hundred of these things?

To me it would be a logical thing to do if there's a need for it or a demand for it by your citizens, your customers. And again, from what I understand, a wireline terminal just sort of works on the end of the line and with a cellular terminal it has to integrate with your network and work with your network and be supported and meet your requirements and be locked onto your network, and all those various things. So, again, it's hard to do small batches. You are all CDMA. If they would let us have a look at it, we would. Well, it's something that you might want to think about, I guess.

CCTS, I think it's called. It's on the record, Mr. I know you mentioned earlier that there is some discretion where you actually reduce the price of some services, as well. None of the registered TTY users have indicated a need for French. Aren't you going to plan for the possibility that there may be new people coming to Saskatchewan and that there could be a demand in the future for it? Well, we certainly would look at it if one of the registered users came forward and said that they could only communicate in French.

We would certainly try and deal with that. Okay, but that's from the end of the users. Now, people that live in Saskatchewan surely don't communicate only with people in Saskatchewan. Some of them probably communicate with people outside of Saskatchewan. Well, I think we would see if any of the operators on duty were bilingual and get them to handle the call. We would have some bilingual operators. We just don't get an opportunity to use our French, so we learn French and then lose it, unfortunately. But if there were bilingual operators on duty, then they would handle that particular call.

And couldn't you extend that to the IP relay service, then? The extent to which we are able to handle it today and the extent to which those calls arise in the future, yes. But in terms of actually setting ourselves up to ensure that we would be able to provide bilingual IP relay service, we just haven't had a need yet to undertake that. Have you considered the possibility of contracting it out in that case?

And that certainly is one of the things we are looking at for IP relay is to contract it out. And again, this would be another consideration as to why a national service would make more sense: Because for VRS you have it in your presentation, and, actually, in your undertaking at the end of your presentation, that you do agree that it should be set up as a national service. And then you mention that you are only going to offer VRS in English.

I think the question that I was answering was in relation to IP relay. So VRS, you will also offer in French? Well, again, our view is that it should be a national service, and we certainly would support that it should be an English and French service, yes. If it doesn't become a national service, if it becomes regional services, will you be offering it in French, as well?

Why would you struggle with that? Well, I guess we could contract to somebody that would have that expertise, because we certainly wouldn't. Yes, so we would contract, and I guess we would certainly look to see if that was available and possible, and try and understand the costs of obtaining that. But if it was a call centre that offered both English and French, then I would certainly think it would come with the service that we would contract. So, basically, correct me if I'm wrong, what I understand you to say is that you have not made any specific cost analysis as to what it would amount to to offer IP relay service or VRS regional service in French, as well as in English, once you implement it.

Right, we wouldn't have any costs at all. And in terms of video relay, we wouldn't be anywhere along that continuum of understanding of costs. Will you make those comparative costs when you get there? I would think so. Can you commit to it? Yes, we would certainly commit to do that. Kroll's point that he's not a technical person, but I still have technical questions anyway.

And it's regarding, really, your IP technology. I will maybe try that. And then it's copper, okay. With regards to your electronic program guide, we were under the impression that at one point SaskTel had asked for a quote to get a voice sensitizer device to connect to that program guide so that the program could be heard. I'm sorry, Commissioner, I'm not sure what you are referring to. As I indicated earlier, it was one of the functionalities that we flag in the RFP that we have put out the middleware vendors, but we are certainly not at the point where we have been able to determine whether that's even possible.

Did you get the reply for that RFP? My understanding is that the responses have come in and that they will begin reviewing them shortly. Can you keep us informed whether or not your supplier was able to provide you with a positive answer or not? Yes, we will do that. Thank you, Commissioner Lamarre. Have you got any questions, Commissioner Duncan? I have just a simple question, I think. If I'm a customer of SaskTel's, how do I access the open signal now? Is it just a single button? Yes, you would get your remote, you would select "Guide", and then you would have to scroll to the described video programming channels.

So then, as compared to the six steps, still a few steps, is that the idea? A few steps, yes. And as I said earlier, we have tried to make it more user friendly by grouping the channels together. Do you have staff that would go to a customer's home and help them set that up? I'm just imagining it would be complicated initially to set up. Not any moreso there than anywhere else, but I think we give as much support as we can. When the installer goes into the home to install the equipment, they would probably lend some assistance if they could, and certainly there are avenues available for the customer to call back if they were having troubles.

So I'm taking that most of it would be done by phoning into the office, then? That would be our first attempt: Thank you very much. Thank you, Commissioner Duncan. But still on points 16 and 17, on page 2 of your presentation, you had indicated that it seemed to be of your belief that accessibility issues largely rested with technological issues and you had said: It's a hard wall that divides the two and that puts you in another framework of thinking, in terms of what you can and can't do given the size of your organization.

Well, certainly the phones that we do carry and that we do offer for sale on the wireline side are not simply designed and aimed at those that are completely disabled, they are to get at people who are hard of hearing. And, of course, certainly as I'm discovering as well as I get older, the hearing starts to slip. Well, I guess I was reacting somewhat to what I felt was a little bit of a defeatist attitude towards your ability to address the issues before this hearing.

So I'm hearing you say that you do have sensitivity and are making efforts in the areas you can make. We do have a number of products and services that we provide. Perhaps the frustration is really more on the wireless side than on the wireline side. No, we are not aware of any.

Actually the Office of Disabilities of the Province of Saskatchewan has asked us to use that smaller amount of our deferral account to actually focus on seeing whether we can adapt these products to aid cognitively disabled individuals to be able to live more independently. It is a per cent owned entity. Two that are today monitored remotely would be blood pressure and blood sugar levels, which of course diabetes leads to so many other disabilities. With respect to the business model of any service provider, again we are seeing at this end that scale of aging population and the percentage of moving into what could be considered some form of disability.

As an individual reaches 75 years of age, we are being told that between 65 and 75 per cent of the population of that age group will be considered as having some form of disability. Thank you, Commissioner Simpson. Just a couple of things. I think intuitively I think it would make sense. I think you would want to understand the specifics, but intuitively I think it would make sense.

So would your company have any concerns if we move to a national message relay service? No, I don't think we would have any concerns. Just to be clear, we haven't decided that we would only do special needs. It's just that we think that the amount of money available may only permit us to do special needs. We are still trying to understand the audit. If the Commission were to make a determination that the full website should be accessible, would you undertake to provide us with an estimate of what the costs would be to expand accessibility to incorporate all the information available on your website?

We would have to do an estimate because we wouldn't know for sure, but I think we would have an idea. If you could provide that and any other information you would have related to requirements, benefits, challenges or so on, you know, in expanding the requirement to be all information.

We will see what we can do. The end of next week, is that reasonable? With some of them it would be reasonable. That last one I would be very surprised if we could provide anything meaningful within a week. Maybe I will just check with our legal counsel. I guess I shouldn't have said the end of next week. And we will be laying all the undertakings and tomorrow we will provide the list.

It seems to be a long list. Does legal have any legal questions at all? I see heads shaking no. Kroll, for appearing before us. C'est un mot qui a une racine grecque, qui vient de " ambly ", faible, et " ope ", vision. Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs. La parole est d'argent, mais le silence est d'or. Et, dans notre cas, c'est l'inverse, c'est la parole qui est d'or.

Deux choses doivent se passer. Excusez-moi; il vous reste une minute. Bonjour, monsieur Dubois, madame Pardo. Ce que nous avons fait depuis juillet, c'est poursuivre la consultation et l'analyse du sujet et nous savons Donc, on voulait clairement exprimer c'est quoi les besoins de nos membres. Je vous donne le contexte. Monsieur Dubois, voulez-vous ajouter quelque chose? Si je peux ajouter quelque chose. Si c'est le psychologue qui est en train de donner son opinion, le lieu, l'action. Donc, il peut avoir Madam Secretary, do you want to -- are we on time now to link in with Winnipeg?

So, I think it might be appropriate to take a break now with this panel and link in so that we can utilize the video comfortably.

You need ten minutes? Maybe we can do that and, in that way, we can avoid -- we're going to continue. On peut continuer, on me dit qu'on a encore un peu de temps pour pouvoir continuer. Oui, oui, c'est parfait. Oui, je pense que oui. Parce que quand on va sur un site web, on y va comme n'importe quel client. Ce n'est pas juste des besoins particuliers. Bien, au niveau de la J'ai une question qui est d'ordre un petit peu plus administratif. Avec la France, oui. Vous ne les connaissez pas. Et est-ce qu'il y a des gens Est-ce qu'il y a des autres questions du panel?

On prend dix minutes. We are going to start again. We will now proceed with our next participant, Mr. Edwin Ross Eadie who is joining us via videoconference from our Winnipeg office. Eadie, can you hear us? Can you hear me? I am Sylvie Bouffard, the Hearing Secretary. Thank you for allowing me to step in a bit earlier here as I have a job interview this afternoon, I would really hate to miss that.

It is tough being poor, although I have a nice suit today. I think it was last year a decision was finally made by Stephen Harper, I think. I believe that there needs to be a universal design approach to any system of providing culture to us in this country because the special segregated ways of dealing with these things can only achieve a minimal percentage of access.

Why can't we get to 90 percent, as we have, let's say, in captioning for people who are deaf in our broadcasting system. I am not sure of the exact percentages but why can't we achieve that? We need to be able to do that. We need to hear ideas from Canadians who are not immersed in what I would call segregated services. They have a good will, they want to try to solve problems but what they end up usually doing is they come up with segregated service ideas in how to deal with things because after all they have to make sure that their organizations are viable.

I mean YouTube is out there and people are advertising there now and we have to deal with those situations. Why do we have to duplicate cost? That is an extra cost that we shouldn't need. Not long ago it was probably double that price and it is coming down because more is being done. Why not have them, through their production processes, produce the descriptive video?

There are writers and directors and producers on these shows and actually the writers know what they are trying to depict when there is no verbalization happening. I spoke to somebody who works in the business and this is about creative rights as well. Why do we have to have a separate cottage industry where you pay somebody else to write the descriptive video service? And this is for preprogrammed stuff, this isn't real time DVS that people are trying to consider, which is much more difficult to do.

Like I say, no politician is going to want to be known as the person who hurt those poor cripples, you know. I am sorry to say it that way but that is kind of how society kind of looks at things sometimes and that is the reality. You often hear from the people who provide the segregated services but you don't get to hear the people who have the universal design ideas, the way to maybe achieve a much bigger access to the systems.

I was listening with great interest. I am glad that they were still presenting today. They were talking about only having four network channels with open description. That points out the problem with open description. The Documentary Channel, I just love it. Do I have to listen at three o'clock in the morning to listen to any programming content that I want to listen to?

So what am I left to? I don't have it, it is on my credit card, I am still paying it. But you know what? This is a great thing to have. Why couldn't we have used some of that money to pay for the audio system so I don't have to pay for it? So how do we find the money to do that? When I heard access, I thought, well, if there is all this money there and people want it back, why can't we actually use that and use it for access? Because there are many people with disabilities who don't have access to this. We need to be able to reflect and utilize some of those resources maybe.

The 20 cents a month, I hope you will ask me questions about that. I heard people worried about administrating the fund sort of things but I have ideas on that. Even though I might have to get my son or somebody else to turn the DVS on for the time being but if we establish this fund, we can get people to design the software and hardware that we can use. They told us they couldn't put a voice on these things. They told us they couldn't do it. It is impossible, they said. That was how many years ago, right? They can do it now. He has been working on this stuff. He knows how to design software, how to tweak stuff to make it accessible.

There's all these people around the world that can do programming. It can be done. It is just a matter of putting a focus in on how to do it. And he designed a software program on the computer that sent the signal over a data cable and whenever somebody who is deaf needed extra help, they could click on this button and automatically would run over to this VHS player, pull up somebody doing ASL on the television and they could watch and learn and find out what to do. It just requires a focus. I do believe that we need to support the video relay service because that in itself is a different language.

Sometimes we have to figure out ways to accommodate, but I think that we need to be putting resources into that. We need to support that. I think that's an important thing. Now, if we take away that licensing, is there a mechanism that we can ensure that they will still consider the needs of the people with disabilities who live in those small markets? It's a way of thinking.

We need to make sure that we can think about these things. I hope to answer a number of questions and I really appreciate that I have been involved this way over the television. I would never have been able to afford to go to Gatineau. Katz here, Presiding Chairman.

I appreciate your comments and I want to say that you can be assured that we are taking into consideration your comments, both what you have spoken about today as well as what you placed on the record in your initial comments. That has been noted. I was just going to say I didn't have time to read it all, yes. I will let you know that they said in their comments of October 6th related to your issue with star 69, they said: Eadie and other customers in similar situations.

Just to be clear as it relates to your proposal on this 20 cents per subscriber put into a fund, when I read your comments I understood them to say that the 20 cents that has been earmarked to support the accessibility channel should be redirected. It is already established. I don't know how you can hold back there, I think it was 20 cents on digital subscribers under whatever class.

I didn't participate in it, but they only provided one option. There was no other alternative ideas presented for people to consider. But you know what, if you can't redirect the 20 cents, then what I'm saying is then, please, we need to establish this fund. There is no way that I can see us getting to a universal design approach without establishing a fund.

But, you know, they are in business. They need to pass on costs and businesses do that all the time. So we need to charge that 20 cents, I think. How much money does it cost to run? If you can't switch over to 20 cents, then we need to charge a new 20 cents. I'm not going to get into the details of the fund, but I would like to address some of the issues you thought needed to be addressed by such a fund. And that is how easily consumers who are blind are able to access the described video programming that is in the system today. What are your views as to how easy it is for you to access the system and what are the more significant barriers?

Is it issues with electronic program guides? Is it issues with the many steps you need to go through or at least it's apparent some consumers would need to go through to actually access that second audio channel, the alternative audio feed through the digital systems? There could be more information about what programming will be in described video. PBS has some described video which, if it gets passed through, I would listen to. Nova often has described video and various programs. That's not the issue.

We know that the human mind can come up with many things. So for each one you would need to turn DVS on or off if you wanted to listen to whatever is being passed through. They like the visual experience without too many words often, as well as my wife. I am lucky enough to have a second television and lucky enough to afford to pay for the telephone service. But the one upstairs we have it just permanently set to do DVS.

So if a program comes on with DVS, I can listen to it. But The History Channel, if they were passing through DVS and you have DVS on, you couldn't hear the regular programming because it was a separate channel of information. Sometimes I'm missing some. But anyway, I digress. MTS Allstream has this wonderful system.

You call up a menu, you can order a movie on demand, you can check the weather, you can do all these things through software. And once it's on and something is being passed through, you can hear it. You know what they did? Somebody designed a Linux fix for that and now I can, on an iPod, listen to the menus and use an iPod. But I can't use the Apple software because they protected the software and wouldn't let the programmers in to trying to solve that situation, right, because that's kind of a proprietary thing.

I mean, there are options. I don't think that we needed to move ahead so quickly with The Accessible Channel based on that research that they did. I don't listen to CTV. I listen to APTN sometimes. I understand they are doing some programming. That's a good thing. So I just wanted to make that point.

So prerecorded programming of any type I think should be a priority. Let's put some extra money into the independent fund and the other fund that provides for Canadian programming content and let's give them some additional money so that they can produce it with DVS. And whatever they are producing they will supply DVS if it is possible to do. Actually, when the Jets were here, I used to attend a game and I would listen to CJOB on the radio while I was at the arena to get that real feel of the hockey game, you know, the excitement and all that.

I like to listen to the Blue Jays play a baseball game or two. So I don't think it is a priority. And I mean that guy is moving fast and he's really good at it, although he is slowing down; he's getting older. But he can move fast. There is no way he could give us that stuff. I can get stock quotes on the web. I can go to the Free Press. I just need to go there and I can get them.

I don't think that needs to be. I hear the laughing at the end. You know, Kramer is doing I don't know what. Some kind of sight joke is happening. It certainly would be great to know what that sight joke was. I think that if the Americans see that we have come up with an idea that works, why not follow it. APTN would be great. CBC, any programming on there. It has some good news, it is important to listen to and they have some good programming, too. Now, often those channels are running the same programming, at different times mind you, but they are running the same programming. If it's described, that is a good thing, but we need to focus in on making some of the content on those channels accessible as well.

We need more described video on that, too. Thank you for your answers. So if some of that money could be used for Canadian. I truly believe that we need to do that. It is a great achievement that we are trying to do. I hope everything turns out.

It's Len Katz again. We appreciate your appearance here today. Can I make one final statement? Can I make one final comment? I often listen to the BDUs and they often have sage advice. I just wanted to reiterate that if we can establish this money, there is no need to set up a new separate administration unless you are going to have, like I said, a universal design consideration committee.

The administration is already there. Just utilize what's there. We appreciate your involvement. We will resume with this afternoon's session. Not at this moment. Do you want to perhaps inform the people listening on the web that there might be a little shift in the schedule? We will proceed with our presentation from the Canadian Hard of Hearing Association in Hamilton, and then we will move to presentation No.

Rendall, you may introduce your panel and begin your presentation. This is the first time I have done something like this so bear with me a little bit. I come to the hard of hearing community, deaf community in when I went deaf. That's when I realized that there was a lot of services that I was used to as a hearing person that were not in the deaf community. These times are not necessarily only for ourselves, but also for our loved ones, friends and the general public. It is obvious on reading into the bureaucracy for this to happen, the CRTC must mandate regulations and target dates for it to effectively take place with our Canadian telecommunication carriers.

The hearing can also greatly benefit and this has already been documented. The first was well documented by the two survivors in a light plane crash off Port Hardy, B. The person texted a friend and advised his battery was low and to text him. The RCMP did that and eventually located a plane in dense forests.

The telephone system was knocked out during this attack and the police and rescue services communicated by text. Lives again were saved. We travel, work and live like most of the general society. We see things but cannot communicate them to the required party because of the inaccessible situation of the Canadian telecommunications services presently offered.

We heard many stories and new ideas for our hearing disabled community, which number million around the world that we know of and 4. It is a European idea and the company, 4C Telecom, are now selling their service to telecommunications carriers there in Europe. Holland has several hundred subscribers already using the system. The availability for wireless communications is well over RTT can be deployed quickly with little investment in training on equipment. The deaf and hard of hearing could only take advantage of the solution if supported by our wireless service providers in Canada.

However, Bell Mobility recently announced to its customers they are perfecting a way that we will be able to detect which tower the text caller is closest to and triangulate their closest position. This will however give us an opportunity to get closer to a real service for emergency and possibly even an alternative for future communications with business and government.

What we are proposing is that these carriers also allow text emergency services for their fee. Initially for the mobile cell phones, they would carry across centres and communicate the call. These centres, then by phone line that was only known to those mobile carriers, connected them by voice to police, fire or ambulance. This is commonly known as basic But for us to use text, the relay center receives a text, then by voice relays the need to the service required.

This is for a wireless device, not landline. Therefore a provincial number could be made available for all. The experts that produced this document, both doctors and hearing specialists, said under communications section 6.

ARCHIVÉ - Transcription - Hull, QC - /09/20 | CRTC

The organization should not rely on telephone as their primary communications tool with hearing disabled since they cannot hear or have difficulty understanding when using telephones. This distinct number system would also distinguish a hearing disabled person from making an emergency service text message call to a receiving operator. These numbers would be recorded by a person in an address directory on their mobile device on a speed dial.

It is also known and documented that many public institutions' TTY equipment are either broken or have no one fully trained to understand how to use them. They have worked with us and have listened to our needs. Many of their devices carry all services needed by the hearing disabled community.

When will the federal government give us an alternative choice or choices and the monetary assistance for other devices rather than just a TTY? We have great difficulty when communicating with police, hospital, doctors and other government services, both federally and provincially.

It's time this changed. The general public needs to understand the word disability. We need the identifiable wireless numbers. I did say in my speech that this particular piece of equipment or application is actually in use in the country of Holland. The company 4C Telecom do have a website. Did you supply us anywhere with that website? I did not supply you with the website but I can do that without any problem. We would be very interested in knowing more. Now, forgive me for not having completely absorbed everything you were saying immediately, but I noticed that you were talking about a different kind of numbering plan for the hearing disabled.

I believe that on listening to one of the things that was said by SaskTel this morning, when asked a question how many disabled people do you have in your vicinity, they didn't fully understand what they had and they couldn't understand how the TTY was diminishing where it was going. How many of those actually have a device, we don't know because there is no way of tracking it.

Yes, it could be. I'm not really sure whether the individual carriers want a national situation or whether they want a provincial situation. When I mentioned that we had an international conference in Vancouver, the majority of people that were either deaf or hard of hearing, they had a cellular wireless device, either a Blackberry or another form of device where they can communicate. When you research the Internet and ask them who are the biggest users of Internet, it's older people. In other words, they lose some of their eyesight as well as their hearing.

People do not sit at home waiting for a TTY call. We are in hotels, we are here at conferences. Here is my BlackBerry address. That's how you reach me. So then, clearly, you would think that the subsidy mechanisms that we use for TTY need to migrate to appropriate newer technologies. I believe that a person should have the choice of what particular device they want to use.

Should the subsidy be invariant, or should it vary with the level of calling? I believe that, right now, we should have a set package, much the same as if we have a hearing assistive device. So they need to have accessibility to everything, but they also need to be able to choose what device they want to purchase. Are you aware that it is available elsewhere, such as in the United States? Yes, I have been told in a number of situations that the IP service is available in the U. The Americans are following the Europeans. We can only go on the stories told to us at that conference in July of this year.

It is working, and it is being sold to other countries in Europe.

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Is the record of that conference on a website anywhere? That I'm not sure of, but I am sure that CHHA, my national office, does have some notetaking, so I am sure that there is dialogue from that conference of all the different levels and all the different things that were presented, which you could have access to. I think we would probably want to know more about this. If you could send all of the information you have on that, that would be very good. I have sat down with many carriers, and an IP system is not really what we are looking for at the present time.

That is what I am told, and, like I said, the costing would be very high, and the complexity would be extremely long in trying to work the IP system into our present system. We would like to have a service now, and the only way to have that service is to have a service that can effectively give us communication capabilities to emergency services.

We have no way to communicate with any service, to advise that service that there is something happening where we are. Therefore, we need some way of communicating what we see. All of the basic situations are there. There is nothing that has to be developed, it's there.

In particular, if you can, I would like you to describe such barriers as you may encounter in dealing with telecommunications equipment. I am not too sure what the question is, whether it is the accessibility of the equipment, or whether it is the barriers of having the equipment and the carriers. The thing is the barriers that we have with the carriers of having that equipment to service our needs.

Prentice actually had an article in the Globe and Mail about text messaging to his children, and why should he have to pay for these text messages. We don't have that type of service available to us by a carrier.

I just want to say that all of your answers are perfectly adequate, and you can answer the questions in any way you would like. Anything that gets your views down on paper is helpful to us. I would just encourage you to answer in a way that makes sense to you, so that you get across your point. Are there solutions to problems of access that would not require regulatory solutions? We have to make it crystal clear, it's emergency services by a relay system.

There might be increasing access by means of accessible information, such as operator guides and user information; there might be improved customer support to assist in understanding how the machinery works; or specific technology that gets around the problem created by inaccessible equipment, or a component which is inaccessible.

If we are talking about wireless technology, I believe that if a carrier did as much advertising as they do for the hearing community, the hearing disabled would pick up on the advertising. They all went out, and some of them got them. Sometimes you need a little bit of assistance to understand fully how it operates. You can now get information in print from organizations that you were not able to get before. One of the questions we are trying to probe concerns where the disabled get their information, where it is useful to get their information.

They don't really understand accessibility for the disabled. Who are these people? What place are you talking about? I am from the City of Burlington. We have a needs assessment set up. You become very frustrated. They do not understand the frustration you go through. In your experience, have you found that the actual manufacturers of equipment provide useful information to you to assist in overcoming problems of access? In some instances, yes. That is about the only thing they do on their website. I have not actually found one particular body or group that collects all the information on any one particular disability to provide access on statistics, for instance, in Canada.

The only statistical information I usually get is from Statistics Canada and that can only be done from what the local constituents write in on their census about where they are disabled, what disability they have got, et cetera, et cetera. We have spoken earlier about access to emergency services being, you know, more advanced in Europe than here. Sweden seemed to stand on top of nearly all other countries represented in our conference, in July, in Vancouver. The Swedish government provided our particular disabled community with a lot of funding and different ways to provide services for our disability.

Sweden stood head and shoulders above everybody else. If you have more information on that, I hope you will be sending it to us, along with your reports from that conference. I can make that information and contact available to you. I have the person's name. We are going to talk a bit about universal design. I have not had any access to any person of that nature. The only standard and implementation I have been involved in so far is at my city level, where we are building a new performing arts building and the universal design was supposedly put in by the contracted architects.

And I said, "No, you haven't finished yet". And they said, "What do you mean? I said, "Well, there's other disabilities other than wheelchair accessibility". So we went over the hearing. They are going to think there's all kinds of holes all over the floor with these big black squares everywhere". So before he really understood what accessibility was about. He just thought it was purely wheelchair accessibility. He didn't think that the sight impaired would ever go to the theatre.

He didn't think that a hearing impaired would ever go to the theatre. I can't hear very much when I go. I watch a performance. So I can see things that they can't, but they can hear things that I can't. We get enjoyment from different things. Yes, I'm in complete agreement. In any way, in any order, in any type you want to give them, what are the three biggest issues? I believe with today's technology advancements, we definitely need building blocks of a better communication system for the hearing disabled. We do not want to pick up disability benefits, we want to go out to work, we want to enjoy life just like everybody else does.

We want to be accepted, that a disability doesn't mean that we are restricted in how we live. We need to have an accessibility to the general information of what government will do for certain disabilities, and also the assertive devices available. Manufacturers are always trying to push their wares. The government could have links directly to those assertive devices so that the disabled person could go straight to the link, look at what device they want to purchase and go that route. I would like you now to describe, focusing now on solutions, as the three most important organizational or technical solutions that need to be found or realized to get where you want to go.

It's all readily available. The relay systems are already in place. It's not an issue. Last year, they had , emergency calls of Out of that, 31, come from cellphones. They have definitely got the coverage in their costing. Rendall, thank you very much. I appreciate your answers. Rendall, you were suggesting that a dedicated group of telephone numbers be created in order to address those people with the unique difficulties of disabilities.

We have heard over the last two days, and probably read in the proceeding documentation, that an awful lot of people with disabilities don't want to be identified and registered as being disabled, and so I think your proposal probably would meet with some comment by those other people. I fully understand what you are saying. There's a lot of people out there that refuse to accept or want to be viewed by others as being disabled in the community. However, I have attended employment focus groups in the Province of Ontario and I sat down with people that are mentally handicapped, physical, sight impairment, deafened trying to get work.

I asked them why would they resist being called disabled if they could get work, and they all agreed they are disabled. Those are all my questions. Rendall, I just want to make sure that I do fully understand what it is you are proposing regarding the relay service, SMS relay service. I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about as a message relay system.

If you are talking about TTY, it would be very similar to TTY, except the incoming message would be in text form, the outgoing message from the operator to the emergency service would be voice, obviously, from them to the emergency service. Conceivably they would just accept an SMS message, is that what you are proposing, and then they would interface with the , with the PSAPs? That's what you propose? No, I'm not suggesting that they interface anything. What you are saying is integration, again, into the normal format of It's not going to happen within a short space of time.

Okay, thanks, that's what I understood. They say, for example, there's no location identification, they say it is not a priority service, it's a storing forward service, there's no guarantee the message arrives, no guarantee it arrives in a timely manner, and when it arrives you don't know where it's come from. Okay, like I mentioned once before, I'm not a technical person, but I'm well aware from the carriers that there's alternatives out there rather than just SMS.

I have been in contact with Bell on a number of occasions and they have said that there's no reason why they can't have an effective tool by a relay system. Okay, I think I better understand. So you are not proposing simply to use text messaging as it exists today within the wireless world, you are proposing that there be a next generation of text messaging that would have addressed some of these issue? When you say "next generation", maybe there's a generation already out there that I'm not fully aware of. So when we say "next generation", I don't know whether it's a next generation that hasn't been invented yet.

I'm saying they said there's other systems out there that can be integrated into forming that text capability into a relay system that would be more effective. Rendall, I'm Suzanne Lamarre. So, obviously, the CRTC can look at the question of the telecommunications part of it, but there's also a receiving end that's under the jurisdiction of public safety agencies. And if so, what's their reaction to the feasibility of this new way of receiving emergency calls, but from their receiving end? No, I haven't spoken to the association that you have mentioned there.

Where I have been in communication with is actually emergency call centres. In eight municipalities in and around where I live, all of them say that they do not see any reason why this basic service can't exist. Right now, like I said before, because we don't have specific numbers of how many people have my disability, so we cannot communicate, we do not know how many calls that could have been placed by those people that cannot communicate into the system.

We don't know that right now. I ski, I travelled on business, I have witnessed an enormous amount of accidents. I was even involved in a very big accident myself, but at that time I could hear. There's certain times now when I travel and I see something, I can't communicate. The only way I can communicate is through my wife or someone that I know. I have to text them and they have to call I couldn't move and neither could the other person.

The police were held up because of the ice storm and the only way I could communicate was through my wife. I said, "Let's write something. Let's start to talk. I'm willing and I can do anything I can to help you start your station. Let's not talk in the air and pretend that everything is nice and funny and enjoyable. So it took us 10 years to bring that, six, seven producers, Irish, black, Armenians, and Italians separately.

We were able to convince cable companies that there is a market for it. Then we created the Association de groupes ethniques. Then we created TEQ. Then we worked together. We were able to bring 45 producers, ethnic, different languages: We had problems, we had as many producers interested about this but we didn't have air time. I'm sorry, I would disagree with them because I myself, on my program, there were 12 advertisers. And the other Armenian program was having the same thing.

And all other communities, as George Saad said, they had their advertisers. All these interested bodies, advertisers, disappeared, and the station becomes invaluable because of the incapable ability of the ex-administrators. It's not the station. It's good; it's unique. You always gave us a special place for Quebec multi-lingual television. You protected us from outsiders coming in. It's not necessarily the most important thing. It is important to the viability of rendering possible the station. But we had that. We have the proof for it. We had the statistics made, we have petitions signed, we have producers of their own programming that the advertisers are interested in when you have interesting programming.

So one goes in hand with the other. If you have good production you are going to have advertising attracted to it, so then it would become viable. You are here for Armenian National Television. After I will be glad to answer all the questions you have at that time.

To tell you how much the Armenian communities have lost and lost contact with their mother country and their interest in television. Khatchikian, you are not opposed to the transfer if you are opposed to the conditions under which the transfer is applied for, I gather. Which condition in particular? We are opposing for the condition of reduction of ethnic programmation rather than augmenting it. We had a problem of filling air time. We had too many productions in our hands. We didn't have enough air time. All of a sudden this thinking of, you know, it's not viable and the interest is not there, I do not understand that language.

I would like somebody to explain it to me. So what you are suggesting is even when it was per cent ethnic you feel the Armenian community could not get the ability to reach its community the way it could when it was on Channel 24? When I was the only producer, Armenian producer doing Armenian programming, these ex-administrators came and divided our community by bringing in other producers so that I would not have a strong weight. They said that "If you talk too much we will replace you with somebody else. We were complementing one another because each one represents one section of the community, religious, political ideas, so the ethnic communities are like United Nations.

We, ourselves, in among ourselves, we have our own problems. So it was a formula that worked for us. So we didn't have enough air time. So instead of reducing, taking off two producers, bringing one only representing one side of the community, I think it's not fair. We have the capability and possibility to give you more air time.

The description you are making of having more than one Armenian program, that was the situation on Channel 24 -- MR. On the over-the-air station when it was per cent ethnic, did you get any air time at all? No, we were refused. They are not good enough. I say "What happened? They were accepting our cassettes. He changed the chair from one another, he got instruction from the President Murray Griffith that "Okay, you will choose -- you will find any excuse to not accept these cassettes.

George was among our producers. He was one of our members, but there are other Egyptian producers today they are not enjoying as much as he is enjoying because they are -- with our syndicate, with our union. They are deprived of their rights to express. What happened to them? Sure, one will support with fear that he had made so much investment, if you don't give the licence he is going to lose it.

Three years ago we went through the same thing, but we are here because we believe in it. We believe in our place in Montreal. The ethnic communities have a unique place. You have always made it so clear in the past. I would like you to continue on that too. You said that you have not been contacted by Global prior to the hearing but you contacted them and met with them.

You will retain the hope that on the schedule that perhaps some program for the Armenian community can find a spot. We have very amicable, very understanding -- they are professional and so am I. I am one of the players. Why go across Canada, America? We have channels American here and there, we want one ethnic television. We were able to produce it, we created -- the past experience is there, working perfect, fine.

Why create problems when there is not one? So, what, per cent ethnic over-the-air is your position? A hundred per cent ethnic, yes. Well, if you use the same persuasiveness with them you may get there. Thank you for coming. The next interventions you will find at Nos. I will give you copies of their oral presentations. Je change de chapeau maintenant un peu. In memory of this document we presented in front of you, the 28 producers of our syndicate union feel very badly that not only them, other producers, including it's very ironic, Mary Griffith and Milton Winston who were the creators of this CJNT are no longer on the air.

There's something that's not fair. We were on the air. We were ejected by the CJNT. That's why we went, we fought, we created syndicate. Alors je ne peux pas vraiment pousser plus avant l'analyse. Si je peux me permettre. Vous connaissez notre position. Nous, on parlait de 50 pour cent, 50 pour cent. Il y avait eu des rencontres avec les gens de Global. J'aimerais bien clarifier notre position. Lorsque je parlais avec M. Et puis les annonceurs? Glenn O'Farrell et M. O'Farrell qui se cache les yeux. Our members are the journalists, cameramen, editors and technicians who daily produce CFCF 12's local programming content.

As stated in our written brief, it is our members who edit and put CJNT's programming to air. In terms of local content, this translates into the loss of all our locally produced programming, including a sports show, a lifestyles program, a news show aimed at teenagers, and ultimately our morning show. We have gone from six news researchers down to 1. Investigative journalism no longer exists and our consumer reporter who battled on behalf of the Montreal consumer retired and natural that beat was dropped.

We now voice-over American consumer news. Although the Canadian production industry is vibrant and growing, we have also witnessed the decline of local coverage for communities across Canada. Surely, there must be a way to ensure a vibrant production environment as well as healthy local programming content.

Global asserts they are rescuing CJNT. CEP M does not deny that Global's application is a viable choice to this body. However, they are not the only rescuers around nor is our application to change the terms of licence to the sole choice. Given this example, it should follow that in the Quebec market non-multicultural shows should be in the language of the majority that being French.

Beyond our hope that the application be delayed, we have no objection to Global's acquisition of CJNT provided CJNT continues to do what it was licensed to do and exclusively serve Montreal's ethnocultural communities. I don't think we have any questions. Your position is very clear to us. Thank you very much, and thank you for taking the time to come.

Comme vous le savez, nous existons depuis ans. Vous vous en doutez. Nous, on a voulu enfoncer surtout le clou sur ce 40 pour cent. C'est ce que j'appelle l'enveloppe, le visage, si vous voulez, du poste. Je pense que c'est un contact plus direct. Oui, mais on ne s'est pas vu. Ils sont ici, dans la salle. Larose, me disait que le rapport devrait ou pourrait normalement sortir avant le 24 juin. Le 24 juin de l'an Celui de ce matin. Ceci termine la Phase II des interventions. We will take a pause of five or 10 minutes. We see that there are some details to be worked.

We have tremendous appreciation for their efforts. I'm sure that you have heard today some stories about how some people were left out. It's very difficult, as we all know, to please all the people all the time. It has had its troubles. It has had significant financial difficulties, but throughout that period ethnic programming still remained available on the air and still is today since we stepped in. We see the communities, frankly, as viewers and, indeed, producers because they are the catalysts who have made the programming available over the years.

There again, it's very difficult, and as the policy recognizes itself, to serve all people of ethnic background in a given market, so there are some trade-offs that have to be made and the policy speaks to that. What we have showed you in our projections are the best estimates we can make today of how the future is going to be, but what they don't include are the significant investments that we have already made in this station that won't be recouped by year five. In other words, the ongoing operating subsidies that were provided are not there. I just would like to re-emphasize that in our view, there is no way in this particular circumstance to make this service viable and ultimately useful over the long term without attaching it to an incumbent broadcaster.

We have to educate and bring advertisers to the station. That's going to take time. They have invested significantly in marketing and promoting that service. We will have to do the same. Despite the fact that we are proud of the so-called clout of CTS and our ability to market stations, we haven't done that for CJNT and we are going to have to do it and we are prepared to do it. I'm happy to hear that he felt the same thing.

We spoke as candidly as we could as to where we came from, why we were here and where we thought we should go. There are only good ideas that will be rewarded and, indeed, we won't satisfy all of the people all of the time, but we will do our very best to do so. The lack of evidence, or the allegation that there is a lack of evidence, just does not seem to be realistic to us. The allegation has been made, but we can't see it and nobody has provided that to us either.

CJNT, the commercial over-the-air station, with one revenue source being advertising, is a totally different creation than a community channel supported by a cable company. That was there was a bigger base there to mitigate whatever impact would flow from introducing more conventional commercial programming into the marketplace. Others that were not here today are equally enthusiastic and equally committed to keeping ethnic television alive in that marketplace.

We have heard it firsthand and we want to say thank you to them. We would like to have the opportunity to do so. At that time we will decide whether or not a response is necessary. If it is, we would like to ask if we could file that by next Friday. There was a last question I asked about the possibility of a five year licence that would kind of help better reading. Well, on that point, first of all should the turnaround of CJNT be so extraordinarily successful and early, the Commission, as you know, always has the opportunity after five years to call a licensee in for an early licence review.

That evidence will be on your record and it would be to your discretion. We would obviously comply with that. I'm looking at my colleagues. I think all our questions are answered. The Commission may also, by order, forbid the doing or continuing of any act or thing that is contrary to any such regulation.

Thereafter, pursuant to subsection 13 1 of the Broadcasting Act, the Commission's mandatory order would become an order of the court and would be enforceable in the same manner as any court order. If a mandatory order were issued and the licensee subsequently failed to comply with these requirements, the Commission would provide evidence of such failure to the court and thereafter a show cause hearing for contempt of court would take place before the Federal Court of Canada.

Simply put, what this means is that the licensee must clearly demonstrate to this Panel today why a mandatory order should not be issued. We apologize for the trouble for you as well as the intervenors. Thank you for that remark, Madam Chair. Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission.

We are pleased to appear before the Commission today to address our licence renewal. On my immediate right is Mr. He is an accomplished musician in his own right. He has served the station in volunteer and paid capacities, serving as music director, program director and even as station manager. Nilan's experience at CIUT spans 12 years. Angus may be familiar to the Commission in his other life as a commentator on telecommunications issues, but we are happy to have him in his volunteer life as a Vice President at CIUT and a volunteer announcer hosting "Let the Good Times Roll", a very popular blues show on CIUT.

Barbara has been indispensable at finding granting agencies who are interested in assisting CIUT's important community outreach efforts. But in , certain problems arose with respect to the management and operation of the station. While these have been painstakingly detailed on the public record over the last year, I can briefly summarize those challenges as follows: This situation became completely unworkable after the board lost the quorum needed under its by-laws to take corporate action.

Prichard, in response to a specific request made by the Student Administrative Council, SAC, appointed a two-person task force to address these challenges. The task force examined and recommended on a comprehensive array of issues concerning CIUT, delivering its report in April of , a copy of which was filed with the Commission. Not only was the station experiencing serious financial difficulties, there was also significant instability with respect to its operations and management. This led to an application by the general members of the licensee to apply to the Commission in November of for temporary management authority, the TMA, which the Commission approved in January of this year.

I am pleased to report that a new board has been constituted, one that comprises a cross-section of the membership of the corporation, including SAC, the president of the university and full-time undergraduates and community volunteers. First, let me provide a brief summary of the steps taken in the areas. We then proceeded to delve into the important task of re-writing the corporation's by-laws, which Ian Angus will address in a couple of minutes. Nilan Perera will explain these steps in detail, and how the station's full complement of volunteers are now well equipped and well informed to ensure ongoing compliance and adherence to our licence obligations and to the Commission's new Campus Radio Policy.

By spending less on staff and running a much tighter ship. Our financial house is now in order. It has enabled us to significantly expand our technical operations. We now have a redundant reel logger system. It's installed and positioned to be off-site. We are adding two new studios, enabling pre-production of shows and the airing of live music and recording of Canadian independent artists.

This will better allow us to meet our educational mandate and to provide a better platform to expose and record new Canadian musical talent that is not being represented by other radio licensees in Toronto. Ian has been indispensable at helping craft our proposed by-laws, given his extensive experience in the governance of volunteer organizations such as the Toronto Blues Society, the Canadian Telecommunications Consultants Association and the Society of Telecommunications Consultants.

I am a volunteer at CIUT. I host Let the Good Times Roll, which is devoted to blues music, which one of many musical genres on this station and one of many that is completely unrepresented on community radio. Initially, I was dubious about the actions taken by the University of Toronto and the Students Administrative Council last fall, but I quickly became convinced that their decisive action was necessary to put the station back on track. Today, every volunteer I speak to comments on the marked improvement of every aspect of CIUT's operations. While there were many attempts to amend them over the years, none of those efforts were carried through to completion, so we were left with by-laws which were out of date in many important respects.

We wanted to ensure that the new by-laws achieved that balance and enshrined them in the rules of the station. Among its many recommendations were measures to better accommodate appointment and elections, to enhance the Board's accountability for each year's operation, to preserve continuity of function and operation, and to expand the ownership base of the station. The amendments were approved in principle by the board. They then went to our lawyers.

Just a bit of detail. They then came back. We have the final draft which is about to be approved by the board. It will then go through several other procedures. Let me just say what they include. The station manager will now be a non-voting member of the board, reducing a conflict -- removing a conflict. This will allow for the proper election of a new board in the new year. They will also resolve many of the station's practical operational problems. Finally, they fully respond to the substantive concerns raised by some intervenors in this proceeding with respect to the governance of the station.

Nilan has brought his long-time experience to the station and his vast knowledge and background in diverse musical genres and to the role of his Program Director position. The music lists were not complete and the logger tapes were not properly retained. However, as we have noted on a number of occasions in response to Commission concerns, these instances of non-compliance must be seen in the context of the unique and extenuating circumstances that characterized the station during the period.

Brian has already mentioned the steps taken to ensure that our volunteers understand programming obligations and indeed comply with all of the regulations by which CIUT is bound. I can report with confidence that the program logs are up to date and complete. We urge you to view this as an isolated aberration, given the circumstances that engulfed CIUT at this time. These figures are well above the prescribed minimum for their respective categories.

I wish to clarify on the record our spoken word programming now meets or exceeds our POP requirements and, moreover, are far higher than the levels set by the Commission in its new campus radio policy. Overall, 35 per cent of the week minimum features spoken word. This is inclusive of the music programming. Barbara's devotion of even part of her time to CIUT has been a real boon for the station.

She will provide you with her perspective on the recent developments. Since April of , I have hosted my own program, Intuition, which features contemporary jazz with an emphasis on Canadian talent. Therefore, I can speak firsthand about the vast improvements the station has undergone since temporary management has been put in place. What a contrast from last year when it seemed that there was a possibility that CIUT could actually go off the air. The staff was unhappy. Screaming matches between various volunteers and staff were not uncommon.

At meetings, a small number of very vocal volunteers would dominate the floor with their issues. After all, volunteering is supposed to be an enjoyable experience. I for one soon joined the ranks of those programmers who just came to the station to program their shows. The staff at CIUT is now accessible on a regular basis. Channels of communication, so lacking in the past, have now been established. Phones are answered and messages are relayed. The on-air booth is supplied with new music on a regular basis and a plan to highlight new Canadian releases is in development.

I felt that by leaving I would only be hurting the listeners and the many Canadian performing artists whose work is featured on my show. I am pleased to note that my faith has been rewarded. CIUT, a unique voice for alternative culture, is alive and well. Madam Chair, it is our hope that the panel today has addressed your concerns with regard to the governance and management and to our commitment to comply with our regulatory obligations in our next license term.

With the reconstitution of the Board of Directors, the reformulation of the by-laws and the establishment of firm policy and operational guidelines with respect to logger tapes and music lists, the station is finally in a position to move forward, not only to achieve the recommendations of the University of Toronto Task Force but to meet the new campus radio policy. We hope the Commission will grant a renewal of necessary length for it to finally establish a stable and certain environment under which its stakeholders can participate in and enjoy the programming niche offered by this unique station.

Thank you very much, Mr. Thank you, Madam et messieurs. Perera, Ms Isherwood and Mr. We are mindful, Commissioner Wilson, of those concerns and did, as you observed, endeavour to address them in our oral remarks. Angus will have one thing to add. I will interject first, though, and observe, just in case it was missed in our remarks, that we have installed a redundant reel logger system to prevent technically difficulties with respect to the provision of the tapes to begin with.

And I think you said that you have one located at the station as well as one located off-site? We have purchased the second system. It is now running in parallel so that if power were to cease to one it would not cease to the other. But the ultimate hope is that we move it across the street to the university's backbone system, which has its own power supply independent of the Toronto Hydro system. We could do that probably within a week's time.

Angus, do you -- MR. I think when you review the situation -- in a certain sense there is a lot of us at the station who feel that we got hit with a major management crises and a request for records in the same two weeks. Many times there were no blank lists to fill out at all. If there were technical failures, there was no one to fix them. I think any programming at the station can now testify that Nilan calls you if you don't make your measure.

Anything you requested for that month we were having problems with. I know you were talking earlier about whether or not we would be speaking in English or French. I'm just having trouble hearing anything at the moment. Zolf of Heenan Blaikie, Mr. Zolf indicated that a number of steps have been taken by CIUT's temporary management to ensure that you will be in compliance with all of your requirements. I wonder if I could just go through some of these specific questions. Some of it may be repetitive to what you have said in your opening remarks, but you will help to satisfy our concerns by going along and answering the questions.

Perera, you mentioned that you personally are responsible for conducting those reviews. Are you the only person who is responsible for conducting those reviews? Yes, I am at the moment. Are you training somebody else to help you out in the event that you are away from a station? The reviews are done on a periodic basis. When I am there, which I am there most of the time, I take the logs every day and review them. On a weekly basis we create a statistical database outlining Canadian content just so we have it on a -- we have a weekly survey done so we know what the Canadian content is for each category and we know how much spoken word actually gets aired.

So you are actually looking daily at the logs? Aside from listening, yes. I mean, I do a lot of listening. Now, your counsel has also indicated that the station has implemented a structured filing system to ensure that all the information required by the Commission upon request is readily available. Could you describe what this filing system and what types of information you will be keeping?

The filing system is in two sections. Naturally the hard copies of log sheets that do get created by programmers on a daily basis get put through a process where they are entered into a database. That database will supply Canadian content, spoken word and the numbers -- well, the categories of music shows that exist, and that gets all entered and a sheet gets put out every week. Then the hard copies of the programming logs do get filed in a filing cabinet in alphabetical order and the statistics are drawn from the computer database.

With respect to the regulatory requirements and the education of key personnel -- I think it was described as in the April 20th letter -- was there an educational program in place at CIUT prior to with respect to ensuring that your on-air programmers were familiar with the requirements and that the staff -- MR.

I can forward this later, but that's what it looks like, and in it there is a list of pertinent CRTC regulations. They sign, with respect to their shows, specific Canadian content category percentages that they are required to do on their show and minimum -- I'm sorry. Does someone review with them what the different content categories are? The MAPL thing has been gone through. So the key personnel that you refer to in the April 20th letter, is that just on-air people? That is primarily on-air people. When I was asked to become program director again, the station was in pretty much disarray and the programming had been reoriented.

So my first concern is that our on-air voice or on-air programming be: Is there anybody else besides the on-air personnel who need to know that? People like the technicians. I mean, literally anybody who gets anywhere near the on-air booth, whether they be techs or show hosts, programmers or volunteers, is apprised.

Since I am basically the key contact in terms of station administration for the volunteers, since I am program director, I manage the programming in that way. So the information, in addition to Canadian content levels and the category requirements, you would also address levels of spoken word. What other information would you cover in this training?

Like we have an internal new release policy. We like to bring out as much new releases as possible. That would be helpful. I will just read from that. So we are way down there at the bottom of the list. We are way down there at the bottom of the list. I would have thought you would have "complies with CRTC regulations" right up at the top. I believe a lot of that are in the regulations anyway. But you are saving the best for the last. There are other sections in here too. That agreement says generally that they have to comply with their regulations. Where do they find out what those specific requirements are as sort of a general statement?

They are available at the station. I have a copy in my office. There is a copy in the main office for perusal. So you don't attach a copy of those to the agreement? No, we don't attach a copy.

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Might that be a good idea? That would be a good idea. I encourage people to read them, definitely. I say, "Here are the regulations", or I refer them to the Web sites and have them check that out, yes. I was just going to say that. So we have had some, I wouldn't call them workshops, they more have been small groups that we have convened to make sure that people are mindful of the rules of the game and ensure that -- we want to make sure that whatever initiation they have had before is fresh.

So even seasoned people, people who have been with us for years, have had to go through this process. They found it beneficial. I find that beneficial. I was about to say, the last one that I was at we spent a whole lot of time going through the liable and slander rules and what was involved in that. If you are playing this type of music, this is the percentage and this is what this means in terms of the number per hour you have to do of this.

So he boils it down and it does get out. But they are easy to misunderstand if you don't get them right down to simple English, and Nilan does that. I would just like to mention that if you hand your log sheet in late you find out about it immediately. Commissioner Wilson, if I might add, the agreement that Mr.

Perera has illustrated is really less an agreement and more an attestation from the announcer in question that kind of focuses them on the task at hand. So it is coupled with a relatively formal written document and an oral discussion of the obligations that each announcer has to do. I think it is attempted to strike a balance between something that is too daunting, you know, like a six-page illustration of the regulations, while also being digestible for the particular volunteer announcer to understand and move forward.

They put new commissioners through orientation as well. Just so you know. Is this something that you will do on an ongoing basis at some kind of a regular interval to ensure that the volunteers, especially as new people come into the station and people who have been around for awhile maybe cycle through? I'm looking forward to holding orientations, you know, on a monthly basis based on that. If it is relevant, especially when we got the new regulations in terms of increased Canadian content, that immediately went in. That was when those memos went out.

I just say, "This is the way it is; let's go", right, that kind of thing, "New regs have come down; let's do it", right. We will be taking Canadian content out of the regular library, creating a new library that will be actually in the broadcast booth itself, the room itself, away from the regular library facilities that will be by genre separated but strictly consist of Canadian content music, both as a way of educating our programmers as to what is out there as Canadian content -- some people actually don't know certain artists are Canadian -- and, as well, have them, you know, get easy access to it.

It's just sort of like saying, "Look, we are here. You know, we need to expose our artists in the various genres", which I'm really happy about. We are getting tonnes of Canadian music and really good Canadian music too. When you consider that that is part of what makes you alternative -- MR. It is so vitally important that we also have this live music studio where I can call in and I do a three-hour jazz and improvised music show every Friday from 3: Now, I can call in -- well, when the studio gets going, I can call in bands within the city or bands that are going through the city, you know, in terms of the festivals as well, to come in to the station, set up downstairs and we will broadcast their music live and can even supply with a DAT tape of their performance.

This is an essential service, both in terms of the music that I am programming as being improvised and fresh and not quantified to be able to put out in that way. We are literally doing jazz by doing that. Could I just point out that we actually do, at this point, have a system for identifying Canadian releases in that on the spine there is a maple leaf. So you can just pull open a drawer and look for things with a maple leaf.

I do think that the new segregated section will make it even easier, but there is something in place already and has been for a long time. Thank you for clarifying that. I wonder if you could just describe what that checklist is like, what appears on it and how the volunteers become familiar with it. The checklist itself, actually, I will be honest, is still kind of in development.

We are trying to work CRTC regulations -- actually, just as part of it, we are trying to, like, you know, massage it into one document, various station policies, and that people understand what the MAPL regulations are, that people understand internal station things, like what the new release things are.

Various things like that. We are trying to figure out if we can combine several documents, the logs, the agreements, and the dissemination of CRTC information into one. Perera, when you were speaking this afternoon about spoken word programming, you actually quoted some levels. I wonder if you could -- I was scribbling madly trying to write it down, but I wonder if you could just review those again for me. I don't believe they are in your text. They are not in the text. I had notes on my text. I can do it off the top of my head. So that's 35 hours? And it's 28 per cent. Of your total programming?

The programming that goes from six until midnight. That's the 18 hour schedule. In total, including the backgrounding, foregrounding segments of music shows, of which there's a lot, it brings it up to 35 per cent.

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Under the station's current management arrangement, who is ultimately responsible for ensuring that all station programming broadcast on CIUT meets all of the applicable provisions of the Regulations Act all times? Ultimately, Commissioner, I guess the Board of Directors of the corporation who delegate ongoing day to day management to the manager. If you had a person to address a letter to, it would be to myself. The Program Director has, like the editor of a newspaper, the artistic director of a theatre company has, a great deal of latitude, but in the end, it's kind of the Station Manager who is accountable to the board.

It's those clear lines of authority that we have set up within CIUT. Now, just going back to the logger system, I wonder if we could talk about that in just a bit more detail. The station has had repeated problems over the last two licence terms with respect to supplying complete logger tapes upon request. Just describe to me, did you actually purchase a new system, an entirely new system than the one you had before?

It's an uninterrupted television supply. I worked in television. Not only is it parallel as I described earlier with respect to its source of power, but it's also independent, even if its own line of power failed. Would record that air. It would be recorded nonetheless. One of our volunteers also works in commercial radio and he made the comment that our system now is actually superior to what he has on a commercial station that he does some administrative work for. We would like to know the name of that station. Did you say, Mr. Burchell, that the system is computerized, the logging system?

It's called reel logger. That's the software we use. And who is responsible for verifying the proper functioning of the logger machines? It is three front line personnel, the volunteer technical director who works about 45 hours a week, mostly in the night shift. I'm there by about seven in the morning. I check at that juncture and Mr. Perera checks it in the afternoon, so we have an overlapping monitoring of it. It's also on a video screen so we can see it actually displaying its functionalities.

If one were frozen, we would see it happening. It hasn't happened since we built in the redundancy. It appears to have been unnecessary because neither has failed, but I'm sure the day will come. I'm also monitoring it just so I can get the shows that I haven't heard or monitor new shows. In terms of its functioning, I can attest to the fact that it functions really well. It's also a great signal. Going back to the uninterrupted power supply, we didn't have one at the channel that I worked at until the day we were having a board meeting and there was a power failure and the channel went off the air.

They said "power supply, you should buy one", so we did. Is it in your office, Mr. The room is a side office to my own. The door is never closed. The light is left on. The monitors are within view from passers-by as well. So you would say that it's monitored on a very regular basis. Not just two or three times a day. It would be more often than that. Yes, also because we use it as a tool to play back what we may have missed in our ongoing monitoring of the broadcasting. In terms of it malfunctioning, how would you know that?

Is there an alarm system on it or you would just notice it because it's not working when you looked at it? It would be visually evident that it was not functioning. Provided you are looking at it at that particular moment. That's correct, but both systems would have to fail concurrently for it to create a problem with respect to the regulations. To the best of your knowledge, can you assure the Commission that at this moment the station's programming complies entirely with the regulations and its conditions of licence pursuant to the campus radio policy?

I can say with confidence we are broadcasting consistent with the programming, managed and regulated by our promise of performance. We are also in compliance with respect to our programming with respect to the new campus radio policy. We are trying to fulfil both, which is possible.

They are not exclusionary. And with respect to the possible issuance of a mandatory order as outlined in our Notice of Public Hearing, do you wish to provide any further evidence to indicate that the station is now and will remain in compliance with the regulations and its conditions of licence? I will ask Mr. Zolf to comment on that. Did you say with no exceptions MR. Again, the non-compliance during the week in October of last year should be seen as an aberration and not an ongoing failure to comply. We feel in these particular circumstances, do not warrant a mandatory order, particularly in relation to previous decisions the Commission has made on radio licensees, particularly campus radio stations in terms of when and when they have not issued mandatory orders.

My final question is with respect to the comment that you made on page 20, Mr. Burchell, with respect to your renewal. What do you mean by "necessary length"? Madam Commissioner, I'm hopeful that the Commission is aware of the effect that a short renewal duration may have on this or any licensee with respect to the cloud of uncertainty with respect to whether or not the station will be on air for years to come. My sense is the last term that was five years has ended up being six and a half as a consequence of administrative renewals. A short term would be potentially disabling in that it would suggest that we don't have the confidence of the Commission representing the public interest.

Does that have a direct impact on your financial viability? I would argue yes, given the fact that the advertisers may not have the confidence for a long term relationship. We have a few questions. At page 13 of your presentation you mention that you expect to submit the revised by-laws for approval at a general membership meeting this fall and then submit them for approval by Industry Canada. Could you please give us more information, like the exact dates of the meeting and when you expect the approval? One of the difficulties of a volunteer organization, to be frank, is getting everybody into the room at the same time.

We expect a meeting -- we actually hope that we can do a meeting of the general members in the same month, but I suspect it will be in October. We have students and all kinds of other people to get together. Would it be possible for you to file a draft with the Commission? We certainly could do that, yes. Could you undertake to file a draft?

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We can produce a draft for you within seven days. Our current ones are very marked up, but we will produce a clean one for you within seven days. Counsel, it was always our intention to file those final by-laws with the Commission -- or pre-file the by-laws with the Commission to the extent that they do raise issues concerning control of the licensee ultimately with the Commission. That concludes our questions. Thank you very much for helping us understand better. Commissioner Wilson would like to see you at the reply, but we would too. We will now start Phase II, which is the hearing of the interventions.

I would like to remind intervenors that each have 10 minutes to present their interventions. I will get my little running stopwatch out here. Good afternoon and welcome, Mr. It will be an altogether different presentation that I will be giving. Paul's College in Washington, D. Since this is the Radio-Television and Communications Commission I will make my presentation in the form of a radio drama. You have just heard the president of the university saying that he personally found the man's views repugnant, but he defended his freedom to speak.

The president went on to defend the university's responsibility to protect freedom of speech and expression. A few days later, on October the 1st -- October seems to be a very busy month. October the 12th, CIUT is on the air again, but it is a new regime. There has been a takeover, what journalists would call a bloodless coup. All, or most all, are welcome back. It's more or less the old contract. You didn't see anything, you know nothing, and even if you are, you are forbidden to talk about it.

Five volunteer programmers need not apply. In fact, they are banished to outer silence, hopefully never to be heard again. CIUT was a lively, interesting radio station delivering a variety of words and music to listeners throughout southern Ontario and northern New York State. CIUT was one of the few media outlets which provided alternative news and commentaries for the campus and the community, as was and still is their mandate from the CRTC.

They helped to disclose the secrets of the MAI and defeat the MAI and generally educate the public about globalization, privatization and corporatization. The spoken words truly were outspoken. Hundreds of people are protesting granting of an Honourary Degree from the University of Toronto to kinder and gentler George Bush. University professors are walking out of this ceremony just as the same president of the university is making the presentation. The university's dedication to freedom of speech and expression is being put to the test.

Was this the final straw? Back to the present. A few giggles can be heard in the audience because they know that the supreme one is a member of the university governing council and has profited from the university student handbook. The story will be: That fixes the management. We will sell off the whole night spot from midnight to 6: Forget the community, we are going for the world. That is the new name.

Règles et pouvoirs dans les systèmes de régulation : Volume 2

It is important to note that the station programming will remain intact. It is the station's attempt to live up to its mandate to provide a forum for alternative broadcasting and those committed to progressive thought and action through the spoken word and music shows. As read End of quotation. The so-called various steps have never been discussed on air or off the air.

Several weeks ago, there were pleas on CIUT asking listeners to phone in if they supported the station. Why do they need support? Did hey mean if the listeners supported jazz or rock and roll or would like new music, was the result for rock and roll and for jazz? So what is to be done? Other intervenors and the CRTC itself will come up with ideas and possible solutions. I can say only that the process should be open and democratic and held in a location within the CIUT listening area where the public can be informed and involved.

Also during that time, public forums should be held in order to inform and engage the study body, the administration, the faculty and the community at large with our great tradition of free speech and democracy. I have no questions. You have no questions.

The next intervention is presented by Manuel Canales. Thank you very much for hearing from us today, somewhat belatedly I suppose because the events about which we are very concerned occurred over the summer of and, of course, on October 1 of Since then there has been a lot water under proverbially speaking under the bridge. I would like to make sure if I may, Commissioners, that you have that brief now because it seems to have gone astray, that is it was submitted in August, lost and then I had to fax a copy on Monday.

That is the brief of the 21st of August? That is correct, exactly. As read I will now review what we consider to be some of those deficiencies, some of the problems that we think exist, not only in the past, not only before October and from October into the new year, but in fact problems which currently exist and amount to non-compliance by CIUT-FM towards the regulations of the CRTC, in particular the regulations published in January.

I am sympathetic to the fact that you are inundated with paper and with complex issues and when I have looked at it, and tried to look at it from the perspective of the CRTC and your regulatory responsibilities, it seems to come down to a couple of simple things, and I have headlined it CIUT-FM Today, Management Issues, and CIUT-FM Today, Programming Issues, my point being that we are not talking history, we are talking right now, and we are talking where CIUT is going if you renew its licence without any directives. According to current and recently terminated volunteer programmers, management decisions are often arbitrary and unfair.

And despite its determination not to intervene in internal management problems, can the CRTC afford to ignore authoritarian management procedures and the deplorable lack of communication and collaboration with volunteers and the community? They make no mention of the fact that they have "ghetto-ized" spoken word programming between 9 a. They have sold it for a substantial amount of money which is the primary way that they have managed to balance their budget.