The whole debate we have about best ways to teach, about best practice, about resources, apps, all that kind of stuff is killing us as a profession. It's not how they teach. It's the impact of that teaching on the kids. That's an idea that has captured my attention for the last couple of months, this idea that so much of teacher practice is hidden beneath the surface. If you want to save yourself time reading the book, just read that one chapter because the other lines are variants of that same theme. I know that one of the reactions to your work sometimes has been that we don't really read the whole book.

The law of probability interventions. It's all looking backwards.


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I look at the research of what's happened in classrooms. This has probably happened to you over and over again in your career as an author and researcher that you will share something, share a new idea or share a new finding in a book, and then as practicing educators, we immediately misinterpret and misapply that.

I've talked to Charlotte, and Bob Bazalo, and many of the people who develop these instruments, and they're horrified at how they're misused because it's all about the use and interpretation. Honestly, as instructional leaders, we're often afraid to get into the thinking.

I just want the narrative to be about impact, not about what we do. If you could wave a magic wand and get all of us in the instructional leadership business, if you could get all school leaders everywhere to do one thing, just by a wave of the magic wand, what would it be? Stop talking about what you do. Stop talking about how you do it. Stop talking about the students. Stop talking about your curriculum.

All I want you to talk about, all I want you to privilege is the notion of expertise. Hattie, thank you so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio.

About Dr. John Hattie

I think there is so much that we are doing, as a profession, that diminishes teacher thinking, that diminishes the importance of teachers' own cognition, reflection, and judgments about their practice and judgments about what their students need. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.

Transcription by CastingWords https: Play in new window Download. Thank you Focusing on what the students are learning. Get teachers to talk about pedagogy not student behaviour. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Watch the impact on the students, regardless of how the teachers teach.

If you can get teachers to talk about what they are thinking. Get the teachers to talk.

This radio broadcast was HUGE for me. Very interesting information Dr. Hattie and Justin shared! Thank you for posting this Justin. Knowing Thy Impact is key. Loved hearing the two of you talk instruction and validating all types of teaching styles. What a powerful discussion.

John Hattie's Eight Mind Frames For Teachers - VISIBLE LEARNING

Teaching for Success 6 Comments. John Hattie John Hattie is the researcher and author behind the enormously influential Visible Learning series, including his synthesis of more than meta-analysis studies related to achievement. Hattie is also professor, deputy dean, and director of the Melbourne Education Research Institute at the University of Melbourne, Australia.

Hattie primarily as a researcher and author. Hattie, welcome to Principal Center Radio. I published the book and I take the responsibility here. Sometimes that lead table, that list of factors, gets in the way of the story. It took me 20 years to write that first book to understand what that story is. What it turns out is it's not really what teachers do.

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We could have two teachers, Justin, using exactly the same strategy and one of them implements it well. One of them has got good diagnosis and [inaudible] for their class. One of them modifies it on the fly, and one of them doesn't. It really was not so much what they did. It wasn't really who they are in terms of whether what kind of training they have, how many years' experience, whether in Arkansas, whether in Washington, whether in Melbourne.

What matters is how they think. My argument in the book is that's what we need to worry about with our profession, that expertise that relates to how teachers think. It's incredibly powerful when you see it happening. It's not uncommon at all. I think you should be doing that instead.

I'm very excited to see you direct the attention of educators to thinking, to those things that happen behind the scenes.


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  • Of all the things that we can influence, thinking is one of those that happens beneath the surface or behind the scenes. It doesn't really matter. I've struggled to find any evidence that doing that makes a difference. Only a fifth of the items in the Danielson relate to the impact of the teacher on the kid. I care about that impact on the kids. All you do is tell that teacher how to teach better like you. What you should do is watch the impact on the kids. Why would we care about the teacher reflection on that 20 percent?

    Help the teacher understand that 80 percent. A lot of our work at the moment is trying to help teachers see what's happening in that other percent. Teachers talk an incredible amount of the time. It's not as if kids are sitting there passive. They have a whole private world that goes on in that classroom. How do we help the teachers understand and use that to the beneficiary? If you can get teachers talking to each other about the decisions they're making, if you can get kids talking to each other about the ways they're thinking, and in great classrooms, this happens.

    Close to 80 to 90 percent of the time, kids and teachers are sitting there quietly absorbing the material. That's probably the most important thing that happens. What does it need to be good at, year 5 English, year's 10 panel meeting? Those are the kinds of discussions we have to have, not why are you teaching and how do you teach it, but what do you mean by growth? It means that you're going to have to have an understanding of how you go about assessing them. You do it through listening to student voice. What does it mean to learn on this class? Ask the kids that. What does it mean to have growth?

    How do we use them in the conversation? I go in there to see who I have impact on, what I have impact about, and what my magnitude is. Quite frankly, that's the whole theme of the other nine. We thought just having one is probably risky, so we'll have nine of them saying the same thing. Students learn no matter what. This question of what is my impact that I'm having, I think often we ignore that question. We just look at whether students are learning. That's an incredibly important question to layer on top of that is what is the impact that I am having.

    What are some of the mindframes or some of the strategies that teachers can use to look at student work, to look at some of the results that they're getting from perhaps more standardized assessments, and really get a sense of that? We're trying to implement the latest and greatest strategies, and yet, we always have students who are not doing as well as we would like them to be doing. We want every student to be at percent proficiency on everything we teach, but the reality is we never quite get there. What really matters is when you implement it, the fidelity of your implementation, the ability of you to make those adaptive expertise comments and changes as you go through, the ability you have of great diagnosis.

    They just confirmed what they already know. Surely, our job's to mess that up. Our job is to find attributes and expertise in the kids that they don't think they have, not just to confirm that you're a C student, you're a B student, you're an A student. As I say, our job's to mess it up. What did I learn about what the kids think my concept of impact is, my magnitude of impact? Assessment has an incredible, powerful value if you can learn from that to then decide what the next steps are. Sometimes teachers think and confuse marking and think sometimes it has something to do with feedback.

    Assessment is an incredibly powerful way to do it if we see it as about us, not so much about the kids. Check out the top books of the year on our page Best Books of Product details Format Paperback pages Dimensions x x Looking for beautiful books?

    John Hattie—Ten Mindframes for Visible Learning: Teaching for Success

    Visit our Beautiful Books page and find lovely books for kids, photography lovers and more. Table of contents List of Figures Preface. How we think about the impact of what we do is more important than what we do Chapter 1. I am an evaluator of my impact on student learning Chapter 2.

    VIDEO: Hattie's 8 Mindframes

    I see assessment as informing my impact and next steps Chapter 3. I collaborate with my peers and my students about my conceptions of progress and my impact Chapter 4. I am a change agent and believe all students can improve Chapter 5. I give and help students understand feedback and I interpret and act on feedback given to me Chapter 7. I engage as much in dialgoue as monologue Chapter 8. I explicitly inform students what successful impact looks like from the outset Chapter 9. I build relationships and trust so that learning can occur in a place where it is safe to make mistakes and learn from others Chapter I focus on the learning and the language of learning Chapter