For a while I read nothing but Christian authors. My dad told me I had been led astray because I was arrogant to think I could get to truth by studying. Humbled and encouraged, I started a new quest to find God. I wrote on my blog:. I was deceived because I did not let the Spirit lead me into truth. They were surprised, but they still loved me.
- Archive for the ‘No! We will not let you go!’ Category!
- Reality Check:A Common Sense Guide to Breaking into the Music Industry?
- No! We will not let you go! | The Meat of the Matter.
- Off to Kindergarten.
- Categories.
They were much more concerned when two elders of my church decided they were Catholic. I bonded with them briefly because the three of us were suddenly outcasts. I had stubbornly resisted my deconversion, but these days I am excited to accept reality, no matter what it is. I remember when I finally realized the problems inherent to my precious Libertarianism. I was not dismayed or resistant; I was thrilled.
This comfort with truth unleashed my curiosity about Christianity and religion in full force. In my studies I uncovered lots of false facts and dishonest arguments from Christians and atheists. Each discovery only deepened my hunger for knowledge, but also my realization that humans know very little, and with little certainty. In many ways I regret my Christian upbringing. So much time and energy wasted on an invisible friend. So many bad lessons about morality, thinking, and sex. So much needless guilt.
That was my experience for 22 years, and I am grateful for it. Now I can approach believers with true understanding. The History of Historical Jesus Research. Hey, I had been waiting awhile now for your new site, looks good so far. Just wanted to say hey, and to tell you to keep up the good thought provoking work.
We encounter truth because we long for truth longing being a category of theological aesthetics, it seems to me , and that longing conditions our encounter of truth. I believe in Christ because, in my longing for truth, I haven encountered his glory and presence in ways that I believe are every bit as valid as other sensory perceptions. So, when I speak of the aesthetics of belief, I am saying that just as many materialists only believe in what can be experienced by the senses, I believe that my aesthetic encounters with God condition and shape my perception of reality.
Mark Van Steenwyk Quote. Hi, I came across your site while trying to find good audiobooks I can download. I am sad that you have to turn from God. I can see that you are such a brilliant man, an intelligent one, and I believe God will speak to you or have already been speaking , I jsut pray you will find it in you to listen to Him.
I am not going to start a discussion, or any debate, as I know I will never win, but I will be praying for you, Luke. Hey Luke What an interesting piece. Man you real deep. Well i guess i can share a few of your thoughts coz we lived together through some of these times and im sure we all had our moments where we faced a crossroad and we had to make a choice based on belief or anyother reason.
Personally im still a christian who is trying to fight the good fight. I stumble, i fall, i complain, i wonder, i despair, i almost quit, i quit sometimes, i have problems believing somethings eg like whether the sabbath is really on saturday or sunday try and figure that one and let me know what you find out and so many other things bro. But i get up cry before God almighty, deal with my guilty conscious coz of what i believe God has done for me and whether im anywhere near deserving of how he continues to love me, and i move on live to fight another day. There is so much out in the world that has us thinking and i know it can get to a point where you just fill like doing your own thing coz its so mixed up but thats where faith comes in.
Chrisitans like me and others have put in our fare share of not living our lives like christ did for example by not loving those gay people you where with in the movie but continously rideculiong them and this has done more harm than good, but one thing im sure of is that we know our hearts and God is the other being who knows them. We know our convictions and God is the other being who knows them and sooner or later God and those two areas of our live will seat down and have a meeting just the three of them, no aethism, no new age stuff, no nothing and we shall be still and know that God is God.
I still love you bro always have and always will no matter what. You guys really left an imprint on my life.
- ;
- ?
- !
Let me leave you with two things to think about: Later YOur bro and a believer who is struggling to live like christ and never wants to be seperated from the love of God. Hell aint got nothing on that kind of seperation. That is exactly what keeps me from falling for everything. Yes, and that is exactly the problem with faith. But he was wrong about the Hindu gods existing. And you are wrong about the Christian gods Yahweh and Yeshua. Wasup Luke Thanks for the reply well im not really trying to do the world a favour by trying to live like jesus. That would end in utter misery!
I think its more about a relationship. Once you do that you begin to experience change. Well personally i dont think im much of a great anything, i just have a great God who continues to love me and show me grace when im down, tired and weak. Well evidence will not prove whether i am wrong about God. Im right about one thing, the christian faith has taken a lot of heat like no other about a lot of things whether they are factual, spiritual, traditional and all. Something has to be right for it to be such a threat. Tradition not necessarily christians changed a lot of things that we may be following sheepishly.
I remain your bro Ken P. I believe the distinctives of Christianity, as described by Paul in Athens as recorded in the book of Acts, are well characterized as hypotheses that cannot be verified in their truth value in this life-time. I believe once we control for the impact of the Constantinization of Christianity that the effects are pretty impressive. It is mainly when monotheism is coupled with imperialism that tragedy strikes, this has been exacerbated by virtue of how our progress in understanding of the physical world has not been matched by progress in loving our neighbors.
I love how it is the only religious book that requires people to understand the geography of a place. I think it contains the roots of our understanding of History and much else…. Hey i just read your story…actually religion need not be so mysterious.. God has given us the ability to reason and understand… I have gone through some of the same situations in life as you have gone through and I returned back to my religion islam the same way you returned back to christianity. This religion is based on reasoning and wisdom and not on blind faith. Thanks for making this incredible resource.
From your story it sounds as if we have very similar upbringings. I feel as if I was raised in a bubble of insular Christian thinking, and all bubbles pop. Luke, I read your story and also your link about your studies of Jesus. Lots of information there. In your story you seem to be curious about the experience of others who leave fervent Christian religion. You might be interested in exChristian. Many people find that section helpful when they first arrive. Anyone is welcome to read but certain sections are not open for Christians to post. Thanks, I did post this story verbatim to ex-christian.
There are many good testimonies there. Basically, Christianity looks very much like just another religion invented by ancient, ignorant, superstitious people. Its claims about the universe are numerously false — until they are reluctantly rewritten to keep up with science, which has only made God smaller, less active, and more hidden. Christianity should be called Paulinism. Paul and his followers killed the Jesus movement in the 1st century. Another major problem is that the gospels are the only evidence for the resurrection claim, and yet they are hearsay upon hearsay — literally, a double hearsay.
Where the heck was Jesus going, anyway? On paragraph 1, you say Christianity was an invention. What made you think so? If you can recommend me a good reading about it, that would be fine. On paragraph two, i would like to share with you this link http: Jesus, when I have time. Hi Luke, welcome to the club. Congrats on making it through it. Yeah, it was alright. Your story makes me very sad, I'm not gonna lie. If I may ask, when have you subjected your new faith to the same scrutiny selective though it was to which you subjected Christianity?
How did you go about doing so? Interesting story, I can relate to most of it. I always thought that my faith should be logical and backed up with evidence, so, even during the long time I was a very sincere christian, I usually hesitated to use the backdoor provided by gods almighty powers and our limited knowledge of his ways to explain things in the bible or in theology that seemed contradicting or strange to me, but since I didnt question the foundations of my believes I could cover everything up in the end.
Still, research on different religions, churches and sects brought me step by step to a more liberal view on faith. I still was absolutely sure that the christian god existed and Jesus was his son who died for our sins, but since there were so many different faith systems dealing differently with what to think and belief beyond that, all relying on the same sources I kind of created my own interpretation.
One reason for that: I liked the talmudic concept of the seven laws of noah http: I just tried to be a good person and selected the bible quotes that seemed to encourage that and the rest of my views, just like everybody else did. Thats when I learned to use the tools of science, logic and reason more systematically than before, to be able to tell good evidenve from bad evidence logical reasoning from unsubstantial claims and so on.
There are basic problems with close to all that systems inculding religions you described it here yourself but I still somehow tried not to use that tools on MY beliefs, probably because I got told like most christians through most of my life that christianity is NOT a religion lik others even if it seems to be. I just had to be honest to myself. And congratz to your blog, I really like that you are trying to be fair to everyone and willing to kick bad arguing and easily self-satisfied atheists in the b… if necessary.
We need to check and recheck our arguments and sources and the way we present them just as good as everyone else. Sounds kinda like me, except I wasn't a PK and I didn't read quite as much as you until after I deconverted. I lived in Minnesota for 6 years and nearly stopped believing in God as a result. That is a Godawful, God-forsaken climate. In answering question 61, Craig writes that abortion is wrong because human life has intrinsic moral value. I think what Craig would say is that we do have knowledge of objective moral values independent of any knowledge of God.
This knowledge includes the proposition that human life has intrinsic value. However, there is no foundation for this knowledge outside of God. Whereas, under Christianity, human life has intrinsic value because God has created humanity in His image in order that we might spend eternity with God in the hereafter.
What do you think? Truth is everything, and your aching to find and only believe and drink from its fountain is admirable. You are a critical thinker to be sure…i would think you might want to consider a masters or PHD in philosophy or philosophy of religion. Thank you for sharing. I also listen to the Atheist Experience and Non-Prophets religiously.
If I can use the term. Luke, let me share something with you. I am a police detective in a major city in our nation. Yesterday I appeared in court. I asked her what holiday she was talking about. I told her thank you and that I always wanted to ask someone that question. She then asked me if I am Muslim and if not, how I could not have known the purpose of Easter. She became very annoyed. She pressed the issue.
I told her for the same reason I do not believe in Frodo the Hobbit, alien abductions, werewolves, vampires, or the Blair Witch. She looked at me like I was insane. I then realized something. This woman had never met an out of the closet atheist. I want the religious people out there to know something.
There are those of us in the world, who are atheist, who have no problem admitting it. I have no problem completely disregarding emotional unfounded beliefs in things for which there is NO evidence. I find it fascinating that religious people get a pass. If you say something is true, demonstrate that it is. I am glad you shed your christianity. I am sorry for the pain of the transformation. I am happy for you. And in the process, they miss out on the intensely human experience of spiritual ecstasy, even though ecstasy is orthogonal to dogmatic belief.
Good sex can, too. I came to the same exact conclusions when I was your age. You are going to trust in something, that much is obvious. No matter how you try to explain reality or your personal experiences you will always have to draw the answers from sort of backdrop or meta-narrative. You can try to explain it with science, or music, or art or any other medium you please. Survival of the fittest explains many things but it cannot explain why humans retained an obvious penchant for wasting time and energy by attributing certain acts of worship to a non-existent god.
You will have just as many questions about reality and life as a materialist than you ever did as a Christian. Furthermore what really makes me sad is seeing you fall into this same crowd of dreamers who sit around and fantasize about stumping William Lane Craig! Everybody writes these articles and makes these claims and when they finally get a chance to encounter Craig they get annihilated. I wish we could hang out for a while, I wish I could show you some things about life and things away from the classroom and the library but you have your own journey. I just engage with him because unlike many philosophers — Christian or otherwise — he make coherent arguments.
I do have more potential then that, and I think it might be in the realm of meta-ethics, but I have a lot of studying to do…. Oh, I realized that at the time, trust me. Those were my dark days, before my re-awakening, before I fell in love with God and did my best to shed sin. I just came across your website and story, and found it very interesting. I was interested that the key factor for your conversion to atheism was questioning the historical basis for belief in Jesus, for I went through a similar process but with different result.
I was not brought up in a christian home, but I was sent to Sunday School and by 17 I had committed myself to following Jesus. Like you, I was troubled by the apparent discrepancy between evangelical christian teaching and what I found in the gospels. So, like you, I started reading what historians and theologians were saying. But, unlike you, I found satisfactory and indeed inspiring answers. I read theologians like AM Hunter, and for the first time understood Jesus in his Jewish context, and it excited me. I will comment on this in more detail elsewhere, but the result was that I was confirmed in my understanding that Biblical inerrancy was not itself claimed by the Bible writers, but also confirmed in my understanding that it is historically sensible to believe that Jesus existed and did and said much of what the gospels say about him.
Whether one believes he did miracles, rose from the dead, or was the Son of God are, of course, matters which the historical method cannot address, but historians can confirm that christians believed in these things from the very first, and so they are not later legends. So I stayed a believer, with a strong interest in history and philosophy. Yes, I guess I was asking a bit much, but I thought you might have a feeling about some key factors.
Changing a belief or a strongly held opinion generally requires a significant shock to that belief. Perhaps there may have been two differences between you and I that might have made a difference. So I never really believed it, and thus had no problems treating the Bible as a human document, albeit divinely inspired.
Songs for the Road: The Psalms of Ascent
The first scholars I came across were not highly sceptical, but were more middle-of-the-road, so I gained positive knowledge from them which enhanced my belief. So perhaps overall you were reading more sceptical scholars than I was. Thus more sceptical scholars and a more black and white view of the Bible led to a greater shock to your worldview than I experienced.
Do you think those factors made a difference? Quite possibly, but my deconversion was still gradual. Thanks for sharing your story. As an extra bonus, my family dropped it all around the same time. You, sir, are a brave man. Just because every answer is not valid does not mean there is no valid answer. Luke, I am applying the same standard to all beliefs, as much as is reasonably possible. And a question such as what is god will reasonably yield a single answer. For more along these lines, check out the article on my site in the associated link.
I hear you Luke, but so was I, and though I had been baptized, and went to church and youth group etc, I was as lost and anti-God and hell-bound as anyone. Because I had been fed a false Gospel, one that assuaged my conscience, while I committed and was in bondage to all manner of sin. Adiel, how do you know that you were deceived then, and not now? After all, you were definitely convinced back then that you were a Christian, right?
You could just as well be fooled now, and just not know it yet. I, for one, really did believe it all, when I was a Christian. How do you know you were not a false convert all along? On what did you base your assurance of knowing Jesus? This is really no justification at all, as I hope you can see. I stopped being a Christian because I lost patience with myself and my conreligionists for rationalizing away beliefs that are irrational.
I gave thousands of hours in volunteer work to various causes that I felt that Jesus would have had me spend my time on. I professed the gospel, made a habit of praying constantly, attended a four-year Evangelical university, and practiced apologetics, as you are on this website.
If you have a good reason to think yourself a Christian now, then there is no basis for anyone to claim that I was not a Christian. However, as I began to critically examine my worldview another story , I found that I could not justify belief in Christianity if I applied the same logic to Christianity that I used to reject other religions. Turns out, I told her all of the questions that I was asking about my own faith, and she found that she could not answer those questions, either, without assuming Christianity to be false. Using the standard of the Bible that I cited above, it is clear that I was a Christian in the past.
While I sincerely appreciate you taking your time out to respond and explain why you believed yourself to be a true Christian I must point out that your reasons are not based on sufficient biblical grounds. For example, lets compare your works to the works of some of those whom Jesus said were self-deceived:. Deceived Followers of God: Again I ask you, what difference was there between you and all the false believers the Bible describes?
Information Bubbles for the Deconverted | The Meat of the Matter
I like your blog and I enjoyed reading your heartfelt deconversion story. I have explored a lot of the same topics you write about and I started blogging late last year — http: I just frequent the blog and post comments here. Been following your blog for a couple months now. How else could someone who as sincere fall away? He describes his early days as an atheist as exhilarating: Please, read the writings of Vincent Cheung. Among his publications are foundational texts in Christian theology, philosophy, apologetics, spirituality, and a number of biblical commentaries.
He is committed to the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture, and thus all the doctrines that it affirms — that God is sovereign over all things and all minds, that the non-Christian man is unrighteous and unintelligent, that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, that the believer possesses eternal life and would be received into heaven, and that the unbeliever is condemned to everlasting suffering in hellfire.
Through his outreaches and publications, he is training Christians to understand, implement, and advance the biblical worldview as a comprehensive and coherent system of thought revealed by God in Scripture. He and his wife, Denise, reside in Boston, Massachusetts. I wanted to read on,but it seems that the article has to be paid for in order to view it.
Do you happen to have another source for it? I too, felt the feelings you write about and set out to do my own study, which only strengthened my faith in God……. I guess one can find what one is looking for……gotta have faith in something….. It was very helpful to me………I believe the day will come that you will embrace spiritual discernment again….. Anyway, I just wanted to comment on a couple of things. Because now, since you know that there is no God, you must realize that what you thought was God, what you thought that you fell in love with, was just a fantasy.
So, whatever you experienced was just more of that fantastic imagination of yours. However, if God does exist and you did experience His presence… well, I will let you finish this sentence. Earlier in your life you were completely convinced that God did exist. But you claim that by acquiring more knowledge you have freed yourself from that delusion. Now you are completely convinced that there is no God. Is that because you now possess a perfect understanding of all things?
If not, then how can you be so certain that you are not still deluded? Luke, I must say that you are one of the few professing atheists that I have enjoyed reading. You remain polite with those that disagree with you and on occasion you have even encouraged those who disagree to continue with their faith. I would expect that we have read many of the same books. With the exception of some new facts thrown in from modern science, all of the arguments for and against the existence of God are the same as they were in the first century.
I am sure that you know this quote: Like yours, my journey started as a quest for knowledge, but we started and ended on opposite ends of the road. I will cherry pick this as one more confirming fact of my faith. I experienced God as God, just as current believers continue to do so. Our subjective experiences were the same.
I am a 34 year old born in a Hindu family in India. I have been an atheist by default ever since i remember and have only recently since a couple of years after reading books and blogs like yours that i appreciate it more. I think i was an atheist for all the simple reasons before like superstitions, rituals, suffering etc. However, what i dont understand is this.
I have a younger brother by 2 years and we have both grown up pretty much the same. But he seems to have a completely different mind and though doesnt believe in any superstitions or actual religions but does believe that there is a god and there is a purpose to life which we need to find. No matter how many times we argue, i am not able to get to make him get into my thinking. Maybe you and me are the kind who was born with this atheistic kind of thinking and perhaps it was just chance that you got back to that after years of christianity.
Are you aware of anyone who has been on the side of the Craigs classic 5 arguments initially and have since then gone over to the other side after listenig to debates etc.? I am thinking that there will not be any such. I also have a brother who is younger than I by two years. We had the same upbringing but he still believes in God. For example, someone who is more predisposed to independence will be more likely to adopt atheism. Someone for whom relationships and family are very important will be LESS likely to abandon the religion of their friends and family.
Luke, I stumbled across this website, http: You can see it here: Hi Luke, Do you believe the world is a better place if everyone is an atheist or do you believe it is better off today. I personally feel condescending about a majority of the humans and feel that religion is indeed useful to deter many humans from committing murders, rapes, stealing, other crimes. I am sure most of them are doing anyway even if they are religious but they may do such things much more if they know for sure that there is no judgment coming.
What do u think? I was sent to Sunday School for 8 years from age 4 to age 12 and never believed a single word they told me. On the first Sunday I argued with the teacher about angels. Not a great argument, but not bad for a four year old. You can disbelieve in silly things for silly reasons. For example, you might reject the truth of Christianity not for lack of evidence, but because the Christians you know are not nice. Hi Luke, Just found your website and read your story—almost the mirror image of my story. Anyways, thanks for taking the time to create this website.
I really enjoy the content and the attitude expressed throughout. The very basis of the Chrisitan faith is based upon the rejected one…thus, gays should be the very core of the Christian faith. Hi Luke, Great story, great journey. I know that thousands of young people around the world are making the same journey in life. I am also a son of Christian parents. My father is a minister. From a young age I was sceptical, but only in recent years I totally broke with faith. The thing I recognize most in your story is the bit about the reading..
Information Bubbles for the Deconverted
The clear arguments from atheist writers and the woolly thinking of the christian philosophers. The thing I find the hardest is the relation with my parents. I am afraid that they agree with me inside, but are caught in their livelong tradition and professional career in the Christian world. This feels like a limitation in my live, as I cannot discuss some things with the people closest to me, but fortunately I live in a day and age where contact with people all over the world has become the norm.
I get more joy out the marvels of the universe and have no fears. I wish you all the best in the rest of your life. Wow man, you said something that is almost a direct quote from my own deconversion story. Thanks for posting this, glad you were able to come out of it much like I did. We are both better for having done it. So, in your My Story words I just wanted to be like Jesus. Resorting to Bart Ehrman to find Jesus? That was a mistake. Little wonder you threw away your faith. You would have been better served following the scholarship of F.
Are Christians ever tempted to stop believing? Just ask Hymenaues and Alexander — or Ehrman. Temptation and doubt are not shameful — its the giving up that accrues the approbation of heaven.
Enjoy a few decades of unbridled pleasures just like Jesus, huh? Yes, we all struggle with the question, why should I believe in God? This is a very interesting story. However I have a couple things to say. I was born in china. Religion is highly discouraged. My parents are not believers. I am highly confused. I was Christian but I believe it is because I needed that support.
My life sucked when I was not Christian. After I embraced Christianity my life became so much better. However now I am unsure about God. Firstly, I would like to know if you have studied Philosophy. Thirdly, Ironically there is a reason that your reasoning cannot be trusted. So creation was either Personal or Impersonal. People Who Believe in a naturalism must believe in natural selection. Natural selection is not at all concerned with what philosophers think about all the time.
All natural selection is concerned with is survival. Therefore senses cannot be trusted. Even Richard Dawkins a very well known atheist albeit not an atheist well versed in philosophy, realizes that he cannot trust his senses. He states that he cannot disprove that the world we are living in is something like the matrix.
Plus in a world set on survival our brain will trick us into believing whatever that will help our chance of survival. For example, a sick person will believe a pill will help his fever. However what the patient does not know is that the pill is a placebo. He or she takes the pill and the pain is reduced. Simply our senses cannot be trusted in naturalism. Therefore you cannot trust your logic or reasoning. The alternative is to say you cannot believe in anything but yourself.
However not many people live that out internally consistently. If we do not believe in anything the there is no purpose to life. If there is no purpose to life then there is no purpose to live. Yet we still want to survive. However after this entire arugment from reason this argument is from C. Lewis and is agreed upon by Alvin Plantinga a very renown philosopher http: It just proves that you cannot believe in naturalism because that world view has a defeater.
Essentially here i am stumped. I believe that this is my personal journey. I think its wrong to say this old argument is any kind of defeater for naturalism. At best, it simply requires us to look upon all our beliefs with some skepticism…. Its quite reasonable to believe natural selection might favor more accurate beliefs in some circumstances and less accurate beliefs in others — Plantinga or Lewis hardly have a solid case in that respect. However, I believe that you are thinking illogically. Essentially naturalism is then a half-assed conclusion.
This is not an argument that says all your beliefs are false. This is an argument questioning how can naturalists logically believe in anything without any basis?
Similar authors to follow
I do understand that this argument does not prove God. Day 9 Sowing in Tears, Reaping in Joy. Day 10 The Lord Builds and Protects. Day 11 The Happiness of the Straight Road. Day 12 Patience and Perseverance. Day 13 Grace Day. Day 14 Weekly Truth. Day 15 The Active Discipline of Hope. Day 16 The Quiet Confidence of Faith. Day 19 Eternal Blessedness.
They can blame everything on their old church or pastor, and they can make sweeping condemnations about Christians. I know because I used to be very guilty of it, and even now will sometimes slip into those attitudes. A good practice is to always do your best to understand why Christians have chosen to stay on the path they are on. It also helps to understand the origins of religion in society, and the origins of the god-meme.
Not only will this help you have a more even-handed opinion and attitude toward them, but will also allow you to more deftly debate them should the occasion arise. Related Posted in Deconversion. You are commenting using your WordPress. You are commenting using your Twitter account. You are commenting using your Facebook account.