How about all the people that accept others from the start? Most folks have to go through a growing up process to get to such a state. Maybe they believe marrying an atheist is a sin that will make their son go to hell. Given unjustified beliefs, people can believe terrible things with good intentions. I suppose you miss out on a lot of great people if you limit the dating pool to those who share your belief system. It demonstrates how pervasive religion is. I would hesitate to tell an atheist to leave a relationship like this, because the truth is the chance of finding someone compatible who happens to be an atheist is probably low.
Lucky me, I did it. But love is always great, if it works, so more power to you both. If so, how does that figure into your relationship? Do you believe in an afterlife? After reading this post, I decided to do a little experiment and asked my husband if he would still love me if I suddenly became an atheist. Would you still love him if his views changed? I wonder where this took place. Both parties did change, just not the way you might expect.
Loving you and being comfortable living with you may be separate things for some people. Well, after a long day on the frigid ski slopes, I will attempt to answer the two basic questions it seems people have for me. I know they really like Kate, but struggle with how to express what they believe the Bible says about evangelizing.
I try to make the best of every situation that comes up with my family, but ultimately I will decide what is best for me based on my own criteria and not theirs. Hemant, thanks for the the work you put in to listening to our story and writing this article.
The bit about being a more spiritual atheist is comical. I personally think this whole thing is made up. Someone who wants everyone to get along put this little story together. Talk about desperate, The reality is if they were reasonable they would stop believing in Sky-God tm. And we can vote! Oh the horror of freedom and liberty!!! Thanks for answering him with lightness and grace, it expresses well, I think, why you get along so well with your gal.
Sorry your parents are kind of jerks about this. Actually, sorry society is kind of jerkish about this stuff. You seem to have the right makeup to get past that… good for you! Erik-I am a follower of Jesus Christ and I was just wondering what your thoughts are on 2 Corinthians 6: This was like reading my life story. I am an atheist and my girlfriend is christian. The way the parents acted was very simaler to my situation. Glad to see that others are on the same path. AnneMarie — When I first read that passage, I burst into tears. As in, a public university. Which made it all the more shameful for the banner to be hung.
It actually got approval!!! A high school project inspired him to explore various faiths.
He even did the entire month of Ramadan. He really liked the Quakers and still attends meetings in Boston. Linda — the question you asked your husband is an interesting one. And if they do…well, what happens then?! Would the other person still love the one who changed? Bart — do I believe in an afterlife? Jeff — thanks for the encouragement! I am a Christian and I am very happy for you guys! I dated a guy when I was in highschool that was a very serious atheist and it was hard and we did not make it to marriage sadly even though we were engaged.
I want to commend the two of you because it takes so much dedication and backing from both sides and I remember people treating me differently when they learned that my fiance was an atheist and how people just acted like it was horrible. How many people would ostracize the guy that I loved because he was not their ideal and I still love him very much and always will.
May you both be richly blessed! Thanks for reminding me of the love of my life! Would anyone know of any website links of some kind that might have similar stories athiest and christian relationships — I, and at a guess a good few other people out there would love to know about it — if anything like that exists on the web…..? Well…This story was extremely inspiring. I wish I would have read this entry a long time ago.
My name is Anthony and I am an atheist however my girlfriend Amanda is christian. I would like to leave a slight story of my own but it will be shorter then the one that was written. If anyone cares to read please feel free to ask me any question or offer any opinions and send to my email. I was raised in a fairly non-religious home. My mother and father do believe in the existence of god, and have always said thing that have referred to the existence of heaven or god.
As I got older the answer to those questions became more and more complex and vague. I became very interested in things like science, biology and the reason for life. The quest of proof had lead me down a path of atheism. The only comfort that I had on the subject was my best friend Mike. He never bashed Christianity or any other religion or belief for that matter. So I became very comfortable and confident in what I believed. Around 15 years old I was faced with my first challenge. I was presented with the gift of being my nieces god father by my older sister. For days it racked my brain on how that would work being atheist.
I even went to the little practice run that you do before the actual baptism. Many things crossed my mind. Was I lying to myself accepting this gift under the eyes of god with no faith? Was I lying to my sister? The night before the baptism I sat in my room crying fearing what I should do. I gathered all the courage I could and gathered my family in the kitchen. After that, the family was very accepting, understanding and even curious about it. I found myself telling people that I was atheist right away so they could go ahead and decide whether or not they were going to talk to me.
July 19th of I met Amanda. I had actually met her in a chat room. I showed her that I was interested and she expressed the same. The moment that I realized she was interested, I blurted out that I was atheist. She continued her interest in me. Soon after, we began dating each other. We have had our hours of religion conversations almost trying to contradict every thing each other has said. But I can say it always came down to one thing in the end… I love her and she loves me. Well today religion came into conversation, and we started discussing how it would work if we decided to get married.
That is how I came across this wonderful story.
An Atheist and a Christian: A Love Story | Guest Contributor | Friendly Atheist | Patheos
Something that we can both relate to, but will still not stray too far from either of our beliefs. So please, any Ideas please feel free to contact me. I already forgive you. I loved this…I have been married to my Atheist for almost years. We have two children and we love each other fiercly. Well done Kate and Erik. I hope after the posting of this…since it was so long ago…that the two of you are still doing well. My daughter is a Christian non denominational as am I. She is 16 and her and her atheist boyfriend are pretty serious about their future together. I have accepted this boy, never with judgment..
I do not preach to him and never will unless he sincerely asks.
Belonging to Christ is a personal decision. My daughter is very firm in her Christian faith. I actually do not force church on my kids and I expose my kids to various religions. In this situation, I accept and love her boyfriend…whereas his dad found out I was a Christian via my myspace page…within days, the boy was forbidden from coming into my home, citing that I was a bad Mother because of my Christian beliefs and I should be boarded off to a mental institution for believing in God.
What is really interesting is that, I allowed my daughter to go to his home for a year times a week , knowing that she was entering a strongly atheist home. So, just wanted to point out that religious bigotry should not be blamed on fundamental Christianity exclusively. Hi Marcia, Yes, you are right. Bitter, bigoted people come in all brands, just as open-hearted, fair-minded people come in all brands. Life is tough enough for young couples without having to deal with Capulet-Montague hatreds tearing them apart.
Even more well matched people tend to grow in different directions when starting so early. Whether together or parted, I hope they retain their open and accepting natures. I have some questions to those Christians out there dating or in wedlock with atheists or have other religious beliefs entering the picture. I am a Christian myself, my boyfriend is a Gnostic. We love each other very much, but I have some serious fears about continuing in our relationship.
However, I fear that I myself might get a problem eventually if I start connecting more to my Christian friends and family than I do to him. Does this make sense? A big thank for opening such a warm and friendly site, it is so nice to know there are friendly Atheists too! Afraid the judgmental experiences go both way, had so many hurtful insults comments through the years. Yes, it can be lonely because I trust my feelings. I have had to re-learn much of my approach and expectations in relationships.
However I excpect that even in relationships where both parties believe the same things…this is probably normal. I had to get over my fear of his rejection. Those moments are personal and I have and am continuing to learn to be okay with them just being mine. I could see a happy future…even if it was hard work…. Thank you so much for your reply. I think you hit the nail when you mention the fear of rejection. I struggle to see how he could possibly wish to discuss and talk deeply and exploratively about these things with me, even though he says he does. I just fear that we will come to a point where there will be a very clear cleft between us.
And what about the day when we get older, and I have to get up every day with my faith that he will not be there with me after this life. I am an atheist and my boyfriend is a Christian. We have been struggling with this a lot lately. Is there something I can say to him that will help? I love and respect his faith. It makes him who he is! I suggest that you show your boyfriend what you have written here.
You have expressed it all very well. Wherever your relationship goes, the essential thing is that both of you must be true to yourselves, and respect that the other must be true to themselves as well. Only then would you have any chance to be true to each other. But if even then, the differences cannot be reconciled, the gaps cannot be bridged, then because of that same truthfulness you will both know that you were both honorable and fair with each other, that neither was false or insincere.
From that, both of you can move on, and heal, and in time find partners who are more fitting. Even though you did not end up together, you both will be better off for having been together for a while. The Star-Crossed Lovers is the oldest tale. It has been lived and told, lived and re-told over and over for hundreds of centuries. We never tire of telling it, never tire of hearing it, but we never seem to learn from it. We keep on living it, one more time. Young people seem helpless in their love. Their hearts and heads do not connect.
They would not have any hope for other couples in just such a predicament, but they cling to their own dreams of somehow, somehow, somehow…. Their love is beautiful in its foolishness, whether it is the blithe ignorance or the stubborn defiance of the unlikeliness of what they desire. Such sad beauty is the stuff of poems and songs. I praise and thank all foolish lovers, whether they stay together or not, for their quintessential humanity.
Thank you for sharing Jainy, and thank you Richard for that grain of truth that made my day. I have been giving this some thought now. To have a faith, any faith, is like being in a room. And to take on a new faith is like stepping through a door and standing in a different room. If you are two people with different beliefs you are essentially standing in two different rooms. So the question is: Are you happy about living in separate rooms in this area of your life? And it is incredibly lonely. It makes me sad, heavy of heart, and it surely affects him when I am this way.
Jainy, you seem to be okey with it, as is my boyfriend. You are wonderful for being so open and loving about it, trying to make it easier for him.
Living a christian life is such a life directing lifestyle. I foresee many hard conflicts for the both me and you. I am fine with close friends being Atheists or Gnostics, I think most of mine are! But when it comes to someone so close, so intimate, the one to share my everything with.
It just meets that wall hard. Why would that be so bad? PS Congrats to all those that have made their relationships work in this scenario. It may sound horrible, but I really have a hard time respecting someone that believes that. My girlfriend and I are going through this right now. With minor changes, this could be what our story looks like in a little while. Kate and Erik, we look to you as living proof that a Christian and an atheist can live together in happy harmony. Thank you, Hemant, for posting this. I wish you both the best. As a Christian married for the past 21 years, with 4 kids, it is tough enough — marriage and bringing up kids, to cope with ordinary disagreements between yourselves.
I should imagine that your parents, Erik, only want the best for you as they love you very much, and as they genuinely believe that adherance to what the Bible says is the best way to live. The commandments and teachings are meant not to be a rigid rule book but a mor. If you did, what components did you include?
Are there any interesting resources out there that show how others have gone before? Now my wife is a fanatic Christian or … at least she was. Now we are really happy being atheist. Open their eyes by showing them that their own opinion is what matters, and not the selfish phylosophy of religion. Show them how to be free and love without expecting anything in return.
Simply love the world. Thank you for posting this. OK, I have a question. How you you live in peace with a non christian if christians believe that non believers are going to hell? Does Erik not believe in hell? Your god is not contained by religion. Regardless of what a scripture says, regardless of what self-serving people who preach their spin on that scripture say, regardless of whether a person lives an exemplary life of love and compassion without a moment of belief, or connects all the Biblical dots in belief while living a life of selfishness and cruelty, regardless of whether someone ever even heard of any particular religion, regardless of every possible combination of character, behavior, lifestyle, belief, or level of devotion from 0 to , Your god is not bound by any of these conditions.
Regardless of how sure you are, your certainty is puny compared to your god. This was an interesting story, but my goodness! Kate has the patience of a saint. The outside world is religous enough! To have religion intrude into my relationship and family life would be too much for me.
Evolution is a fact. If Kate wants to show support for evolution on her car, she should be able to do so. It depends what tone she was using, but the question itself is perfectly valid.
- The Dichotomy;
- Erotica, Volume 2: Four Hot New Tales of Desire?
- Mercenarys Heart (The Wild Geese Saga Book 1);
- ?
- Encounters.
But then how can we ever expect them to be able to think outside the culture box? Wow I almost finished reading the whole thing. I thought it would have had a better ending. Finishing reading things can really give you a clearer view of things. Here is the update. Why not just be a writer. Why do you feel guity writing about zombies? Or middle-aged cougars with a vendetta? Do we mis-apply this scripture in the name of legalism like we do with so many other verses? What if your deodorant offends your brother?
Your love of curry? Do you stop eating indian food and switch to Old Spice? I think people are free to be themselves; to sing and write about what they want. Again, those with Christ will not malign His name in their art. There is nothing wrong with writing secular fiction, or singing secular music, or writing secular movies. I think that our lives, our interests, are much more okay with God than we realize.
We have too little faith in God and ourselves and our brothers and sisters in Christ. I was thinking…as an example. Imagine you die, and in Heaven you look to your left and you see Stephen King. And you will see them in Heaven, and though you may be shocked to see them there, there they will be nonetheless.
Also, Anne Rice has been discussed and the consensus was not completely negative as I think some of the accusers here would assume. The loop is huge spanning Catholics, every form of Protestantism including Mennonite and most likely including some Calvinistas. You simply cannot make such assumptions.
They are not based on facts or any sort of knowledge. And I appreciate it being about the substance of what is in Christian Fiction, not assumptions of where there writers are coming from. But I was very interested in how it was received, not received, and judged by different ones. Re your second comment, earlier today I was talking with someone whose friend is making a movie about the Antichrist getting saved. Mara, My pastor said a few negative things about The Shack.
And much like the fake peopel in the pews today. Far more entertaining in real life although equally pathetic and unreal. You are not alone. Mara, Not sure if you were speaking to me; if you were, I never made any such assumption about Calvinistas having a monopoly over Christian fiction. Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion from my post. Everything you do or want to do is called into question. It becomes second nature; subconscious. SMG , is so utterly freeing. MuffPotter, You are much more sophisticated than me. Believe, as an SGMer, I was in the closet for years.
And Rage Against the Machine has a few good ones here and there.
- Sammy Sleeps.
- Deck Meine Bälle (German Edition).
- Heart Of Danger.
- Das Pfand des Lächelns (German Edition).
- Got Patience?.
I do like them. But I used to listen to Marilyn Manson… so urm…. On Tuesdays at work, we have 80s Rock Tuesday. The tune was covered by The Byrds way back in the day and has earned kudos from Dylan himself. Good is good and does not have to be forced through an evangelical sieve to made gooder. I am all the better for having experienced it. I understand myself better, life better, my husband and family better, people in general better, and even God better.
I figured he must not have very many creative bones in his body. Or if he did, he was too terrified of the creative process to ever let them flourish. But all of this applies to the creation of and reading of fiction. I think this is true of many people — not just Christians from certain backgrounds, either. But he reminds me of 2 things— maybe someone should write a novel about a musician who converts in order to please his girlfriend and then unconverts again.
And yet— highest praise from C S Lewis…and one of my favorites, as well. As for Christian music, Sara Groves is quite original and out of the box with her lyrics. Christian Prairie Romance, right according to formula. I looked behind me Without rancour without pity To where my footprints were scattered On their journey through the dust From the beginning to an end of time And to the bright everlasting days Beyond the valley We will praise The love and the grace That gave us our existence So lowly beneath a sun As it poured out its light On alien stars You came down To a barren wilderness And you raised the shadow from the valley Gratitude and shame The measure in each hand We will proclaim your name in voice On Gods way.
Or a chain-smoking goth-ferret bad girl in a space-opera universe? Or sword-and-sorcery in Mesoamerican or Old Persian settings without an elf or dwarf in sight? Or colorful cartoon ponies in a magical land? Regarding the last, there is a massive onging explosion of creativity — not just fiction, but art, comics, music, and videos — around the latest incarnation of My Little Pony. The difference in talent between the makers of Deadwood and say the Coen Bros. We of all people should be free to write what interests us. Of all people, God wants to see His children happy. I firmly believe this in my heart.
I do not fear that freedom in Christ means an orgy of sin. I trust my brothers and sisters; their hearts. They love the Lord, they are adults, and they are free to be themselves. He wants you to enjoy the imagination He gave you! Shelter from the Storm and Simple Twist of Fate make me cry they are so beautiful. Appalled — glad to hear it. Joni Mitchell fan here too! And to the other Stephen King fans here:. I liked the way Mr. King fleshed out the character of Mother Abigail.
I also let my kids read Harry Potter and go out for Halloween. I also read 4 of the Potter books and have seen 3 of the movies and plan to see all of them. I find the view of Satan rather amusing in the Christian population. Some actually believe that a person dressed in red, carrying a pitchfork represents the evil one. The evil one is far more attractive, savvy and entices people in all sorts of ways. Lewis portrays evil quite well in the Chronicles of Narnia. The evil one is portrayed as a beautiful, yet icy witch who entices the children with candy.
No red pitchforked little guy here. I had been very worn out, depressed from the efforts of christmas duties. But that piece of music has completey revived me. Brought tears to my eyes concerning God himself, my feelings for my family…. I feel christian art tries too hard. Tries too hard to be… ministerial, perhaps? At least in the Mars Hill camp of the young, restless Reformed domain if you dig Zombieland and Shaun of the Dead virtually nobody is going to complain.
All of the churches of which I was a member, with the exception of my most recent former church, were very open to all kinds of fiction, including movies. In fact, years ago, when The Matrix first came out, I was asked to review it by a Christian leaders because he thought it explored many themes of modern society. I ended up having some people over to view it. In fact, I read the Shack and liked it.
It always makes me shake my head when Christians get on a particular issue, like The Shack, and spend precious little time worrying about how to deal with pedophiles and those wounded by them as one example. Discerning readers can see all sorts of lessons in The Shack. Think about the abuse issue that was part of this book.
Very rarely has anyone brought that up. And, if one reads about the life of the author, one might actually get a glimpse of some underlying themes. Today, with google, one can find out background so easily. Imagination-many in the Christian world see the world through wooden literalism and misses the beauty in allegory. There is a book lurking in your soul along with some vestiges of the Spirit. Maybe a bit of prophet in there. I love to sing it when nobody is around — God did not grace me with silver vocal chords. I will add all of these suggestions to our new page, but it may take me a few days.
I am criminally behind. Honestly, as a Fantasy enthusiast I think the more common issue than fiction in general is, specifically, the idea of magic in fiction. CS Lewis always had magic in his fiction. In fact, he referred to the Deep Magic which spoke a universe into being. Coming at a powerful story from a different angle can so revitalize it for us, it makes us see the newness and freshness of the original story better. Numo You are awesome. It was the Deeper magic-thanks for the correction. I, too, am a geek in this area. I think I did it to see what they were so afraid of.
Which really struck a chord for me, the last 2 books in particular. After four moderately successful novels commercially published by the CBA, I walked away from it. Not from Jesus, and not from writing. Suffice it to say my first general market novel, a science fiction work, will be out next month, and my agent is actively marketing the first of my new suspense series to some New York houses. People who shredded The Shack for doctrinal points A, B, and C would have to take into account that if the real goal of the book was discussing X, Y, and Z then pillorying a novel for A is not assessing the book by the terms the book sets forth.
Eliot for failing to write a sonnet any more than I would shred John Donne for not writing The Wasteland. Fiction for the sake of telling stories seems to be viewed as frivolous, or wrong, or some combination of the two. Oil and wine Good Samaritan: An antiseptic and something to soothe pain and promote wound healing.
The reasons are many for all sides and I do not consider one to be right and the other to be wrong. Both life and writing are journeys and no two journeys are exactly the same, ever. And I would like to hear your story. I just mean to write good stories.
Anyway, congratulations on being published in the general market. John Robinison Please feel free to post all of the books that you have written and their names. Tell us what they are about. Tolkien, one of my personal favorites, did not write as an expressly Christian author. His themes of good and evil, along with good men struggling with evil, shine out in his work.
Welcome to the blog,btw. Of my four CBA novels, the first three were a series, although each can be read as a stand-alone. Joe Box, a brand-new Christian, Vietnam vet, and private investigator with a dark and vicious past, was a kick to write, but God almighty, was it hard finding a house that would take them.
All three are out of print now, but last year I put them up on Kindle for ninety-nine cents a pop. An extraterrestrial force of unknown origin is causing the minds of every living creature to begin expanding at an astounding rate. The Radiance concerns the effects of this unseen force, focusing the story on two estranged brothers: Behind the scenes Cale assembles a task force he dubs the Radiant Project, a select assembly who are tasked with finding a way to combat the phenomenon.
Reluctantly he agrees, but as the effect intensifies, the erstwhile Ranger stumbles across its true origin, the discovery of which will lead to a radical rethinking of everything he thought he knew. Finally, as I said upthread, my agent is pitching the first of my new Cameron Bane suspense series to the general market. A former Army Ranger exacts a chilling revenge against the shadowy government agents whose disastrous intelligence error resulted in the loss of his entire command in Iraq. Using their hush money against them, he now takes on hopeless tasks for helpless people, engaging in rough adventures that just skirt the edge of the law.
But for Cameron, nothing ever goes quite as planned. And it is here he will also come face to face with a living nightmare, a swift and ruthless killer known only by a macabre appellation: But the right person is on the job. So strap down and hang on. I wish your sci fi book was true. There is some need to expand minds in certain Christian circles!
My first book came out last year and is available in paperback or e-book. Books 2 and 3 will be published in August and August , respectively. The first chapter is available on my website. Click my name above. A woman tries to find her father, a troubled soul who inexplicably walked away from his life over a decade earlier. She wants to bring him home and provide the help he needs, but the reasons behind his disappearance will stir up a world of trouble. The locals give them the cold shoulder, though. Having been rejected, the sisters are extra compassionate toward a prodigal whose family has locked her out.
John—Cameron Bane sounds awesome! You said this was a great blog post and you were right! Maybe you guys have some advice. This guy, Mike Malone, thinks his dad died when he was 7. He has other things going on, but the guys sense of his own sin just shreds him. All kinds of action takes place, zombies getting their heads cut off, sword fights, dragons, inter-dimensional travel and it teaches just how much one person means to God. So she took what she learned in the novel and cast them out in the name of Jesus Christ after getting born again herself.
I thought that was way cool! Sounds like a Christian novel, right? Because Mike Malone, a 21 year old guy, raised in Chicago, swears a couple of times. My mom found a secular company. Then I found out the CBA was started by a Baptist organization and uses standards specifically targeted toward that group. Maybe a lot of confusion would go away if they just named themselves more accurately. Skip to primary content.
Skip to secondary content. We are also open to posts by guest authors. Please contact us via email. The Dilemma So what is a person to do when they love to weave together stories? One Solution I did eventually start to let myself produce apples, I mean, let my creativity flow. Christian Fiction's Uneasy Relationship with Speculative Speculative fiction has been the red-headed step child of Christian fiction, which is too bad, looking back at Lewis and Tolkien.
Another Dilemma Well, sometimes life just doesn't behave and things happen that prevent writers from writing. Here's a little youtube video about it: Thank you for the great post! Thanks for the kind words, anon1 and Mara! Steve Thank you for writing in. Oh, and… an article on Amish romances: Russell is Jewish, right? A convert, which is a fairly rare thing.
Amish fiction keeps one foot in the present world while having old world values. I should have egged her house on Halloween dressed as Aslan. Evie I will join you in the egging. Dee, Guess whose book gets released tomorrow… Tim Challies has written an interesting review on it. Book Review — Real Marriage Call me on my mobile in the a. Deb Can I text you as well????? Did you get white or black? Thanks for this post! A Concerned Christian Writer. Meanwhile, I plug away at my little creative writing projects on my own blog..
Lynn If you would ever like to do a post here, let us know. Including breaking the Fourth Wall to preach directly to the reader. When you get into Christian attempts at SF, there are four additional ironclad tropes having to do with cross-contamination from Christian Apocalyptic: With same exceptions as the above. Meg, thanks for the heads-up on J. I may get in trouble for saying so, but I hardly ever read Christian fiction. Dee wrote If you would ever like to do a post here, let us know.
As for the fiction critics…. Guess this is good to know. A variety of likes from the Christian market: I share her sentiments: I love hearing your recommendations, AND where you come from, numo. As you say, there is a lot worth reading out there. Jesus made it very clear that discipleship was to take precedence over family loyalities: Oh, and the girl and the guy end up together in the end. My apologies to fans of Thomas Kinkaid and his artwork. Numo, I think even you would like it!
It real, raw and down to earth. I have read it 4x.
The Church’s Uneasy Relationship With Fiction
Thanks, all for the recs! Bertie from 44 Scotland Street is probably my favorite character out of any of the series. His skepticism and distrust of religious authorities divine right claims of 13Note that "compatiblewith" does not mean "dependent upon" or "derived from. Murphy Stuart kings and Anglicanbishops, papalclaims to universaljurisdiction,Puritan claims to individualinterpretiveright manifestedthemselvesin just such a min- imal theory of religion and morality. After elaboratingnineteen laws and deri- vations from laws of nature,Hobbes offers "a rule, by which the laws of nature may easily be examined.
Do not that to another,which thou wouldest not have done to thyself" , Religiously,he states this minimalismas "Jesus is the Christ. Tuck has traced the connectionbetween minimalistmoralityand absolutistpoliticaltheory,show- ing how Hobbes and the young Locke follow Lipsius, Grotius, and Montaigne. Ryan points out that proposingabsolutesovereigntydoes not necessitatepursuingsov- ereignty to an extreme. Ryan realizes that this argument is tenuous, that it ''may not be the most inspiring defense [of toleration]ever offered," and that "the farthest this can take us.
Mary Dietz makesa similarargumentregard- ing civic virtue, and John Dewey raised just this issue of prudence and sovereign right years ago. Ryan admits that "Hobbes had no time for liberty of conscience," claiming that toleration "poses a question about Hobbes and his contemporarieswhich they never couched in the way I couch it" , He also lived through years of turmoil due largely to competing religiousand politicalclaims.
His political system is one of absolutesovereignty; this does not rule out a tolerationistsovereign,circumstancespermitting,but it does not incorporatetolerationin any necessaryway. We should clarifythe nature 14Tuck has arguedmore recently,however,that Hobbes was a tolerationist. Hobbes and Locke wereallied early in the s, as he argues,but this is becauseboth opposedtoleration, while perhaps favoringcomiprehensiont expandingAnglican doctrine to encompass a broadersegment of the religiouspublic. I find Farr more convincinghere. Social ContractTheory and Religious Toleration of prudentialversus principleddefenses of toleration.
Practically and temporar- ily , the effect may be the same. But theoreticallyand intellectually,principled toleration places religious liberty into a stock of concepts defining legitimate government. In Leviathan,Hobbes was arguing not merely againstJesuits and Anglicansbut againsttolerationists. RogerWilliamspublished TheBloudyTenent in ; the army also expressed tolerationist views.
An Atheist and a Christian: A Love Story
Political debate in mid- seventeenth-centuryEngland was all about toleration. A Hobbesian sovereign mightpursue toleration, given favorablecircumstancesor individualpreference. However, this is sovereign prerogativeand not right see Remer Eldon Eisenach also sees room for tolerationin Hobbes's system, though this interpre- tation "requires one to place heavy burdens on the person of the sovereign" , Regardlessof Hobbes's personalreligious views, however,we must also recall his overridingdevotion to social peace and security.
Concluding Leviathan,he wrote, ". Only by admitting the profound effect that civil strife had on Hobbes can we appreciatethe seriousnesswith which he approachedthe politics of religion. His concerns about the social consequencesof independent, dogmaticbeliefs, espe- cially amongelites, has been noted by DeborahBaumgold: What Hobbes feared most, she notes, was not lay Catholics but "ambitious"Jesuits and clergy.
The list of "seducers" Hobbes blamed for corrupting the English people into desertingtheir king included "ministers" Presbyterianand Catholic and those who had "declaredthemselves for liberty of religion" b, ch. If the alternativeto absolute sovereigntyresemblesEngland in the s, then Hobbes can say with confidencethat "sovereignpower [is] not so hurtful as the want of it" , To him, toleration in light of recent English history would have been disastrous. Though he emphasizeddifferentelements of his politicalcreed at variouspoints in his career,Penn consistently articulatedgovernmentallegitimacyas founded in the people's assent.
This contractarianismwas particularlyhistoricized,evok- ing the ancient English constitution. Murphy are entitled by English birthright" Penn , 1: Nine years later, in En- gland's GreatInterest,he explicatedhis version of contract theory: We, the Commonsof England,are a great part of the fundamentalgovernmentof it; and three rights are so peculiarand inherentto us, that if we will not throw them away.
No law can be made,no moneylevied, nor a penny legally demanded even to defray the chargesof the government withoutyour own consent. Than which, tell me, what can be freer,or what more secure to any people? Penn's views on consent, then, derive from the particularitiesof English citi- zenship, rather than Old Testament exegesis or what individualswould do in a naturalstate. As late as he evoked the languageof consent: Now, to be an Englishman,in the sense of the govern- ment, is to be a freeman, whether Lord or Commoner,to hold his liberty and possessions by laws of his own consenting unto" GoodAdvice, , 2: Penn complemented his contractarianviews of politics with a division of spheres similar to Williams and later Locke, posing political power as dealing solely with externals.
In his Great Case,he defined governmentas "an external order of justice" , 1: Civil in- terest implied common civil allegiance: One Project, , 2: I ask, if more custom comes not to the king, and more trade to the kingdom, by encouraging the labour and trafficof an Episcopalian,Presbyterian,Independent,Quaker,and Anabaptist, than by an Episcopalianonly? What schism or heresy is there in the labourand commerce of the Anabaptist,Quaker,Independent,and Presbyterian,more than in the labourand traffic of the Episcopalian? There is no Hobbesian distinction be- tween belief and action here.
For Penn, liberty of conscience requiredthe "free 18Still, Penn would not persecute law-abidingCatholics. After , Pennsylvaniawas the only Americancolony which allowed public celebrationof the Mass Casino Social ContractTheory and Religious Toleration and open profession of the duty to God, as man perceives it" Persuasive to Moderation, , 2: Tolerationin Englandwas not forthcomingin the s.
Perhapsa new society in a new land could do better. The year saw the first version of Penn's Fundamental Constitutions of Pennsylvania; he included liberty of con- science as the first such "fundamentalconstitution. The mechanics of governmentwere to undergo steady retreatfrom these republicanplans;nev- ertheless, Penn's Frame of Government and Laws Agreed Upon in England held that "any government is free to the people under it.
The extensive religious freedom Penn had in mind for Pennsylvaniaencoun- tered great difficulty in actuallytaking hold. Section 7 of the charterprovided for English review of all Pennsylvanialaws. As Gary Nash puts it, Penn was not a "free agent" in convertingideals of the sinto realities of the s , ; see also Frost , ; Stille ; but cf. When Penn returnedto Englandin to settle borderdisputes, he spoke out in support of toleration,then associatedwith the unpopularking. After the Revolution, Penn was arrested and temporarilylost his charter.
Dissecting Christian Trends
In addition, a rancorousschism within the PennsylvaniaQuakercommunityduring the s led to sharp internecineconflict and provided fodder for anti-Quaker propagandistsin England. The colonial governmentappointed by William and Mary made officeholdingcontingent upon denial of Catholicism,affirmationof the Trinity,and allegianceto the Protestantmonarchsof England. Tolerancedescribesliberalattitudestowardmembersof otherreligious, national,or cultural groups, or acceptanceof the right not to conform and to hold differentbeliefs" , I suspect that it would resemble twentieth-centuryattitudesregardingreligious dissent.
More to the point is Comfort: Murphy Recall that Penn's contractarianismwas a historicizedone in which the Com- mons representedthe consent of the English people. RestorationParliaments, however,were often part of the problem for Quakers: In fact, his consent theory had never been unrestrained,based as it was on the subjectionof parliamentarysovereigntyto a more fundamentalsphere of right such as the ancient constitutionor naturallaw Beatty , When no repeal or alterationof penal laws was forthcoming, Penn lobbied harderfor his land in America.
In casting his lot with James, Penn downplayedcontractarianism,employing instead the languageof prudence and prosperity,the different natures of political and religious spheres, and the im- possibility of coercing belief. Mary Maples Dunn, correctly,sees in liberty of conscience "[t]he key to the young Penn's politics" Dunn , vii. This was occasionedby differentevents in Penn's career: Penn's earliersupportof Algernon Sidney placed hopes for toleration in Parliament,as representativeof the people and a pillar of the ancient consti- tution.
In Pennsylvaniahe used his considerableproprietarypower to pursue liberty of conscience. Finally,Penn aligned himself with an unpopularking who, in his mind, representedthe best hope for tolerationin England. For Penn the principle was liberty of conscience, not forms of government, and debate over means only touched on different assessmentsof how to achieve that principle. Beatty notes this "obviousinconsistencyin method and the equallyobviouscon- sistency in purpose" , So long as contractarianism,within the context of the ancient constitution or naturallaw,could aid him in search for toleration, Penn stressed these, his genuine beliefs.
However,the link between Penn's con- tract theory per se and his advocacyof tolerationremainsless than clear. The extent of political authority, however, is limited: Individualsgive up their power of punishing breachesof naturallaw to be regulatedby civil law in a society establishedwith their consent. Politically, legislativepower is supreme: Social ContractTheory and Religious Toleration The boundariesof political authoritymay be clarifiedby consideringwhat is excludedunder such a formulation: Contrary to the view of Sunderland , 15 , religion representsa substantivelimitation on the power of popular governmentin Lockean theory.
In Locke's earliest writing on toleration, a piece, he criticized the idea of a general toleration. Having viewed the proliferationof radical sects, Locke hoped for an end to what he considered religious chaos: By , Locke's views on tolerationhad changedsignificantly. Sovereigncon- trol over the "indifferentthings" of religious worship remained, but attention shifted from the issue of "what subjectsare obliged to do obey to the question of what obligations of obedience a ruler is justified in exacting" Dunn , In , Locke removed "speculativeopinions and divine worship" Viano , 82 entirely from the magistrate'scontrol, while asserting that "practical [i.
Regardingmoralvirtues and vices, Locke counseled prudence, evoking a "separate spheres" argument in which as for Penn and Williams politics deals with the externals of life. Political authorityis for civil peace, and "[the magistrate] is not bound to punish all [vices]. Gough notes that Locke "in effect. Any assessmentof Locke's views on toleration,then, cannot ignore its devel- opment. It is impossibleto know the precise factors workingon Locke between and There may be others: Politicalcontext is crucialhere;the two yearsbetween Cromwell'sdeath and 22 Sunderlandseems unfamiliarwith Locke's writings on religion, citing only the SecondTreatise in his section on Lockean political theory , As a result, his accountof Locke as major- itarianis difficultto take seriously.
Murphy Charles II's restorationreawakenedin many minds the dangersof anarchy see Reay In English elites, recognizingthe dangersof tyrannyand an- archy,were willing to risk the formerto avoidthe latter. OriginallyLocke trusted the king to effect a moderatereligioussettlement;when he failed to do so, Locke's confidence in the characterof the magistrateas an element of his theory was likely diminished.
The essentialviews on tolerationwere largelyin place by , though many awaitedfinal elaborationin the Letter. Locke's Lettermakes more explicit many of the argumentsof the Essay: He defines the commonwealthas "a society of men constituted only for the procuring,preserving,and advancingof their own civil interests. The church is "a voluntarysociety of men, joining themselves to- gether. Locke admits the magistrate'sabilityto regulateindifferentthings but points out that objects indifferent in everydaylife bread, wine become invested with re- ligious meaning in the context of worship and are thus no longer indifferent , Personalreligious belief is removed from the provenanceof poli- tics.
Combiningthis psychology with the fact that Jesus persecuted no one, Locke finds toleration consistent with human reason and Christiandoctrine. Limiting church power to the spiritualrealmaddressesboth governmentaland intergroupcoercion. Midway through the Letter Locke encapsulateshis view: The years saw the publication of Locke's three most important writings: Taking these as a mature expression of Locke's outlook, we see his defense of tolerationas part of a broaderapproach to social life.
Individuals bear ultimate allegiance to God, as God's property Locke , sec. Politicalsociety concerns "externals";individualsestablish governmentsto preservelife, liberty,and estate. Religion consists of "an inward persuasionof the mind," and salvationis an individualresponsibilityinvolving faith, reason, and revelation. Human Understanding Locke a,IV: For Locke, reason is based on deductions 23 Tully accuratelypoints out the importanceof Locke's shift from his earlierposition;the criterion for permitting religious beliefs changes from an epistemological one based on the truth content of beliefs to a psychologicalone sincerity of the professor.
The implicationsfor the later history of liberty of conscience are enormous, even if Locke himself restrictedtolerationprimarily to ProtestantDissenters. Social ContractTheory and Religious Toleration from natural faculties, while faith in a propositionrests upon the credit of the proposer. Reasonmay be subordinatedto faith in certainsituations,when natural information is lacking or incomplete. Individuals,convinced of one church or anotheras the route to salvation,voluntarilyconstruct religious societies to fur- ther those ends; assumingthe employmentof peaceful and nonseditiousmeans, the magistrate'sauthority does not extend to them.
Schochet a correctlypoints out that Locke'sargument aims far beyond tolerationto disestablishment,althoughthe context of debatein seventeenth-centuryEngland limited the possibilitiesfor reform. Locke's Christianity,like that of Hobbes, manifesteditself in a minimalismin which reason and revelationwere not exclusive. We can know the existence of God from the structureof human self-understanding Locke a, pt. Unlike Hobbes's, Locke's religious minimalismand epistemo- logical skepticismled to a principleddefense of toleration. At the same time, Locke's contractarianismand his commitmentto toleration often existed in tension.
Religious dissenters in RestorationEngland faced a Parliament"dominatedby an Anglican-gentryalliance whose aim was the imposition of religious uniformity [and] the removal of Dissent. The king's use of the prerogativeto pursue toleration provided a dilemma for Whigs; though they did not dispute the legitimacyof the preroga- tive, they had to decide whetherto accepta tolerationthat threateneda precedent of arbitraryand absolute government.
By defining governmentas concerned solely with externals,Locke bracketed off the sphere of conscience from the social contract, rebuilding the theory of consent through the constructionof religioussocieties Locke , Only when religion takes on political ends Catholics or means persecutionof non- believers has it forfeited its claim to absolute toleration.
Even then, toleration f course in reality things are not so clear. Religion, for Locke, is often an issue of national security Catholics and "the basics of human society" atheists, honoring contracts. Nonetheless, the presumptionis for tolerationas the rule, from which deviationsmust be justified.